9/11 victims deserved their fate

[laurentius]

So basicly I just repeat what Diss said

[Dis]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Diss, so janitorial staff in the WTC were "little Eichmanns" who deserved to die?

I'm more and more begining to think you're just crazy. You've just justified Timothy McVeigh bombing the federal building in Oklahoma City.

The moral wrongness of certain actions of the U.S. government doesn't justify killing U.S. civilians. Collective guilt is bull****. Repeat after me: collective guilt is bull****.

And yeah, I would condemn a Jew who blew up 10,000 innocent people in Berlin during WW2, just as I condemn Allied targetting of civilian areas for bombing as well as the Nazis commiting massive atrocities. Hold the people who commited crimes accountable, sure. But that's a far cry from blowing up innocent.

I never ever justified Timothy McVeigh (specifically). I'd like you to find that quote. I have justified terrorism though. I support some causes.

though McVeigh did have legitate greivances, none of those greivances related to him in any way. Basically he was a person who wanted to kill a lot of people. ATF and Waco Texas (or Ruby Ridge for that matter) did not impact him. Although you maybe could make the argument that the actions of the ATF has restricted the freedoms of all americans including himself. But that is stretching it. Basically he's just a murderer with no cause.

[lord of the mark]

"Finally, I have never characterized all the September 11 victims as "Nazis." What I said was that the "technocrats of empire" working in the World Trade Center were the equivalent of "little Eichmanns." Adolf Eichmann was not charged with direct killing but with ensuring the smooth running of the infrastructure that enabled the Nazi genocide. Similarly, German industrialists were legitimately targeted by the Allies"


See here what Eichman was ACTUALLY charged with. Note in particular what i have highlighted in bold. Note that this is only the first charge.


"The Eichmann Trial - Proceedings: The 15 Charges

Charges from the court transcript:

Clerk of the Court: Criminal Case No. 40/61. The Attorney General versus Adolf Eichmann, the son of Adolf Karl Eichmann. On behalf of the prosecution, Mr. Gideon Hausner, Attorney General, Dr. Ya'akov Robinson, Assistant to the Attorney General, Mr. Gabriel Bach, Mr. Ya'akov Baror, Mr. Zvi Terlo --Assistant State Attorneys; the Accused in person and his Counsel, Dr. Robert Servatius.

Presiding Judge: Adolf Eichmann, are you Adolf Eichmann, the son of Adolf Karl Eichmann?

Accused: [standing] Yes.

Presiding Judge: Are you represented in this trial by Dr. Robert Servatius and by Mr. Dieter Wechtenbruch?

Accused: Yes.

Presiding Judge: You are accused before this Court in terms of an indictment containing 15 counts. I shall read the indictment to you and this indictment will be translated for you into German. This is the indictment against you on behalf of the Attorney General.

FIRST COUNT

Nature of the Offence

Crime against the Jewish People, an offence against Section 1(a)(1) of the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law, 5710-1950 and Section 23 of the Criminal Law Ordinance, 1936.

Particulars of the Offence


(a) The Accused, during the period from 1939 to 1945, together with others, caused the deaths of millions of Jews as the persons who were responsible for the implementation of the plan of the Nazis for the physical extermination of the Jews, a plan known by its title "The Final Solution of the Jewish Question."

(b) Immediately after the outbreak of the Second World War the Accused was appointed to be the head of a Section of the Gestapo in Berlin the functions of which were to locate, deport and exterminate the Jews of Germany and of the other countries of the Axis as well as in the areas which the Axis States had occupied. The Section bore, in succession, these identification numbers:
IVD4; IVB4; IVA4.


(c) Instructions for carrying out the plan of extermination in Germany were given directly by the Accused to local headquarters of the Gestapo, whilst in Berlin, Vienna and Prague the Accused's instructions were given to the central offices (Zentralstelle für Jüdische Auswanderung) for the administration of which he was personally responsible until their dissolution, shortly before the end of the Second World War.


(d) In the areas of German occupation the Accused operated through the offices of the commanding officers of the Security Police and the SD and the persons specifically responsible for Jewish affairs who were appointed from amongst the personnel of the Accused's Section in the Gestapo, and who were subject to his directives.


(e) In the countries of the Axis and the occupied areas, the Accused made use of the offices of Germany's foreign representatives in each individual place, and he did so in constant liaison with the special departments of the German Foreign Ministry in Berlin which dealt with matters concerning Jews. In these representative offices advisers were appointed subject to his directives.


(f) The Accused together with others perpetrated the extermination of Jews, inter alia, by means of putting them to death in concentration camps, the purpose of which was mass murder, of which the more important ones were:


Auschwitz: Millions of Jews were exterminated here, commencing from the year 1941 and until the end of January 1945, in gas chambers, in incinerators, by shooting and by hanging. The Accused directed the commanders of this camp to use the gas Zyklon B and during the years 1942 and 1944 actually took steps to ensure the supply of a quantity of gas for the purpose of exterminating Jews.



Chelmno: This extermination camp was operated from the beginning of November 1941 until the beginning of 1945, and in it, inter alia, poisonous gases were used.



Belzec: This extermination camp was operated from the month of March 1942 until October 1943, and in it poisonous gases were used, among other means of extermination.



Sobibor: This extermination camp was operated from the month of March 1942 until October 1943, and in it were installed, inter alia, five rooms built of stone into which poisonous gases were introduced.



Treblinka: This extermination camp was operated on 23 July 1942 and until the month of November 1943. Here too, inter alia, poisonous gases were used.



Majdanek: This extermination camp was operated from the year 1941 until the month of July 1944, and in it, inter alia, poisonous gases were used.


(g) Immediately following the invasion of the German Army into Poland, in September 1939, the Accused carried out acts of expulsion, the uprooting of populations, and extermination which were coordinated with massacre units mobilized from the ranks of the German Security Police and the SS and called by the name Einsatzgruppen ("Operation Units"). Such units operated also after the invasion of the Soviet Union in the year 1941, and advanced in the wake of the German Army. They received their orders directly from the "Head Office for Reich Security" (RSHA) and operated in collaboration with the Accused in the extermination of Jews, each within the area of its authority. The Units were made to act especially on the Jewish Sabbath and Festival Days -- dates which were selected for the massacre of Jews. These Units exterminated hundreds of thousands of Jews in the German area of occupation in Poland.


(h) Before the invasion of the German Army into the regions of the Soviet Union and the Baltic countries, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, which were annexed to her, four Operation Units were organized by the Head Office for Reich Security (RSHA) working in collaboration with the Accused in the extermination of the Jews in the aforementioned regions in that part of Poland which had been annexed to the Soviet Union after September 1939. The acts of these Units included, inter alia, the following operations:


Operation Unit "A" put to death in the course of the first four months of the German Army's invasion into the aforementioned regions:

Lithuania: over 80,000 Jews;

Latvia: over 30,000 Jews;

Estonia: about 470 Jews;

Belorussia: over 7,600 Jews;

Russia: about 2,000 Jews;

The province of Tilsit: about 5,500 Jews.


A total of over 135,000 Jews.



Operation Unit "B" up to 14 November 1941 exterminated upwards of 45,000 Jews in Belorussia and other zones.



Operation Unit "C" up to 3 November 1941 exterminated in the Ukraine more than 75,000 Jews -- and amongst them about 33,000 Jews of Kiev.



Operation Unit "D" exterminated about 54,000 Jews up to 12 December 1941.



During the period August to November 1942, these Operation Units exterminated approximately 363,000 Jews. These Operation Units dealt on this scale and with this objective in the aforementioned areas in the extermination of the Jews, beginning from June 1941, and until the year 1944, and exterminated hundreds of thousands of Jews in addition to those previously specified.


(i) At the end of the year 1941, the Accused gave orders to deport thousands of Jews from Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia (the Protectorate) to ghettos in Riga, Kovno and Minsk. These Jews were exterminated -- and amongst others --



(1) A transport of these Jews from the Reich (Germany) was murdered on 30 November 1941 together with about 4,000 Jews of Riga.


(2) About 3,500 Jews from Germany who were sent to Minsk as mentioned, upon the orders of the Accused, were liquidated by an Operation Unit in Belorussia, together with 55,000 Jews from amongst the residents of the area.


(j) The Accused, together with others, caused the deaths of thousands of Jews between the years 1940-1945 in forced labour camps which were administered under a concentration camp regime and where Jews were enslaved, tortured and starved to death in Germany and the countries it conquered.


(k) The Accused, together with others, caused the deaths of additional hundreds of thousands of Jews between the years 1939-1945 by means of mass deportations and the assembly of the Jews in ghettos and other places of concentration, which were implemented under cruel and inhuman conditions in Germany and the other countries of the Axis, and also in the occupied regions, namely in the following countries:


Germany, Austria, Italy, Bulgaria, Belgium.



The Soviet Union and the Baltic countries Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia which were annexed by her, and that part of Poland which had been annexed to the Soviet Union after September 1939.



Denmark, Holland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Greece, Luxembourg, Monaco, Norway, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, and Romania.

(l) The Accused caused the deaths of approximately half a million of the Jews of Hungary by means of their mass deportation to the extermination camp at Auschwitz and other places during the period between 19 March 1944 and 24 December 1944 when he was serving as Head of the "Eichmann Special Commando Unit" (Sondereinsatz-kommando Eichmann) in Budapest. (m) The Accused carried out all the acts detailed in this count with the intention of destroying the Jewish People.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Diss, so janitorial staff in the WTC were "little Eichmanns" who deserved to die?

I'm more and more begining to think you're just crazy. You've just justified Timothy McVeigh bombing the federal building in Oklahoma City.

The moral wrongness of certain actions of the U.S. government doesn't justify killing U.S. civilians. Collective guilt is bull****. Repeat after me: collective guilt is bull****.

And yeah, I would condemn a Jew who blew up 10,000 innocent people in Berlin during WW2,.

as would I. And my greatgrandfather was murdered by the Nazis. As were 3 of my wifes grandparents.

Please folks, STOP using the crimes of the Nazis to justify 9/11 a crime by the heirs of the Nazis.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Diss, so janitorial staff in the WTC were "little Eichmanns" who deserved to die?

I'm more and more begining to think you're just crazy. You've just justified Timothy McVeigh bombing the federal building in Oklahoma City.

The moral wrongness of certain actions of the U.S. government doesn't justify killing U.S. civilians. Collective guilt is bull****. Repeat after me: collective guilt is bull****.

And yeah, I would condemn a Jew who blew up 10,000 innocent people in Berlin during WW2, just as I condemn Allied targetting of civilian areas for bombing as well as the Nazis commiting massive atrocities. Hold the people who commited crimes accountable, sure. But that's a far cry from blowing up innocent.

collective guilt. I'll have to think on this. But as I said, we live in a democracy and elect the leaders that carry on imperialist policies.

[chequita guevara]

In a democracy, the people are responsible for the actions of their government. Yes, we have collective guilt when our government goes and does things that we know they shouldn't do (or willingly blind ourselves to their actions), and then elect them again. Each and everyone one of us Americans is responsible for the deaths of millions of people around the world. We didn't have to vote for Clinton, Bush, etc. We could have chosen an anti-imperialist. We could have fought agains the hijacking of the Presidency by Bush in 2000, instead letting it happen and telling ourselves "the system worked!"

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by laurentius
I knew people would get caught up by the use of "Eichmann". Why dont you get over it and discuss the issues.

Comparing victims of terrorism to Adolf Eichmann IS an issue, whether you like it or not.

So you would condemn all those but killing innocent babies is ok? Interesting.

I'm sorry, which innocent-baby killers did I not condemn? I thought I was making it clear I condemn all those governments who commit such crimes. The difference is in distinguishing between governments and innocent people.

Part of democracy is that you are not isolated from the decision making or denied the right to protest, condemn and do something about it. This also comes with a moral responsibility. You CAN and WILL be held accountable for what has been done in your name.

And this is exactly why collective guilt is bull****. How many of those leaders were elected with 100% of the vote? Can you prove that janitors and temps in the WTC all voted for the people who made those decisions? How about the Green Party voters who were killed?

You can't just label a huge group of people like that as being complicit in government wrongdoing based on their nationality. Not any more than you can accuse all blacks of being guilty of the crimes of the black panthers, or whatever.

Well, you can, but it just makes you an *******.

So 57+ million Americans voted against Bush in the last election. If those people died by the hands of terrorists seeking retribution for Iraq, would they somehow be responsible for their own deaths, even though they did what they could to change that policy?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dissident
I never ever justified Timothy McVeigh (specifically). I'd like you to find that quote. I have justified terrorism though. I support some causes.

I never said you specifically did, read my post. I said your logic is justifying it, and it still is.

though McVeigh did have legitate greivances, none of those greivances related to him in any way. Basically he was a person who wanted to kill a lot of people. ATF and Waco Texas (or Ruby Ridge for that matter) did not impact him. Although you maybe could make the argument that the actions of the ATF has restricted the freedoms of all americans including himself. But that is stretching it. Basically he's just a murderer with no cause.

This is a lot of smoke and mirrors, considering most of the 9/11 terrorists were in the exact same position. Most of them were from Saudi Arabia. What had we done directly to SA? NONE of them were from Iraq, and Iraq wasn't even a reason for their attack.

So it stands to reason that if you think Saudi terrorists are justified in killing 1000s of civilians--most of whom weren't even working for the government, no less--then McVeigh was just as right (if not more so) for bombing a federal government building.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In a democracy, the people are responsible for the actions of their government. Yes, we have collective guilt when our government goes and does things that we know they shouldn't do (or willingly blind ourselves to their actions), and then elect them again. Each and everyone one of us Americans is responsible for the deaths of millions of people around the world. We didn't have to vote for Clinton, Bush, etc. We could have chosen an anti-imperialist. We could have fought agains the hijacking of the Presidency by Bush in 2000, instead letting it happen and telling ourselves "the system worked!"

Millions of people didn't vote for those people, don't support those policies and, in fact, actively protest against them. They do what they can to stop our government from doing wrong things. How are they guilty of anything?

Of course, this also ignores the fact that Bush ran in 2000 on an isolationist platform. The media was wondering if he would take the U.S. the opposite route of imperialism. He was the one who protested against "nation building" during the election.

[The Vagabond]

In a sense, the most horrid terrorist attack ever took place in the Ossetian city of Beslan (Russia) last year, where captured by terrorists was a school full of children. Thus the attack was directed explicitly against the innocent children who, unlike the adults, don't bear responsibility for the sins of their country. In this case, the terrorists have gone too far even by their standards.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I never said you specifically did, read my post. I said your logic is justifying it, and it still is.



This is a lot of smoke and mirrors, considering most of the 9/11 terrorists were in the exact same position. Most of them were from Saudi Arabia. What had we done directly to SA? NONE of them were from Iraq, and Iraq wasn't even a reason for their attack.

So it stands to reason that if you think Saudi terrorists are justified in killing 1000s of civilians--most of whom weren't even working for the government, no less--then McVeigh was just as right (if not more so) for bombing a federal government building.

while most of us aren't religious we have to face the fact most people are.

Iraq wasn't the issue. The issue was U.S. troops in holy land- Saudi Arabia.

So it's no surprise most of the terrorists were Saudi Arabian.

I admit the reasons seem pretty weak to me. But not to them.

After all, I'm against war. But I do realize war happens, and it's up to us to win it. Though I think winning it through peaceful actions will go longer than using conventional forces against a non conventional force.

All's fair in love and war.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dissident
while most of us aren't religious we have to face the fact most people are.

Iraq wasn't the issue. The issue was U.S. troops in holy land- Saudi Arabia.

So it's no surprise most of the terrorists were Saudi Arabian.

I admit the reasons seem pretty weak to me. But not to them.

Religious conviction doesn't justify murder, nor mitigate it. Nothing in the Quran says it's okay to do what they did--only extremist interpretations of it do. Some people think it's okay to kill babies for religious sacrifice. Why should I excuse that act just because it's based on religion?

Regardless, you have no way of knowing whether or not McVeigh held as strong of convictions about what he did. In fact, the evidence seems to indicate he did.

All's fair in love and war.

If that's the case, then you can't blame the U.S. government for any of its tactics against other countries then, can you? All's fair, after all.

[The Vagabond]

I would like to come forth with the following criticism of the article. The author argues that the US did this, did that, and got terrorist attacks as a result. I believe this is not quite accurate. The attacks came as a result of aggravating post-Cold-War contradictions between the first and the third worlds, the Muslim world being the revolutionary vanguard of the latter. Even if the US had not made such bold moves as Iraq, etc., terrorist attacks would have come anyway. In view of this, the Bush strategy is not that unreasonable. (Besides, there are other reasons to justify such a strategy, not related to terrorism.)

[Dis]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I would like to come forth with the following criticism of the article. The author argues that the US did this, did that, and got terrorist attacks as a result. I believe this is not quite accurate. The attacks came as a result of aggravating post-Cold-War contradictions between the first and the third worlds, the Muslim world being the revolutionary vanguard of the latter. Even if the US had not made such bold moves as Iraq, etc., terrorist attacks would have come anyway. In view of this, the Bush strategy is not that unreasonable. (Besides, there are other reasons to justify such a strategy, not related to terrorism.)

most of it stems from support of Israel. If we had never supported the creation of the state of Israel, we might not be in this mess.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I'm sorry, which innocent-baby killers did I not condemn? I thought I was making it clear I condemn all those governments who commit such crimes. The difference is in distinguishing between governments and innocent people.

And this is exactly why collective guilt is bull****. How many of those leaders were elected with 100% of the vote? Can you prove that janitors and temps in the WTC all voted for the people who made those decisions? How about the Green Party voters who were killed?

You can't just label a huge group of people like that as being complicit in government wrongdoing based on their nationality. Not any more than you can accuse all blacks of being guilty of the crimes of the black panthers, or whatever.

Well, you can, but it just makes you an *******.

So 57+ million Americans voted against Bush in the last election. If those people died by the hands of terrorists seeking retribution for Iraq, would they somehow be responsible for their own deaths, even though they did what they could to change that policy?

Yeah. Because obviously those millions of humane Americans let their presidents and governments commit these crimes against the humanity. If presidents like George Bush, Bill Clinton and GWB are responsible for these crimes how many Americans are there who havent voted any of these? 5 million? Anyway thats not even the point here.

The point is that if a supposedly democratic country is lead by war criminals the people must act! And if majority still votes them to 2nd term you got to start considering alternative means to remove the war criminals from power. This was done in Serbia for example.

Sometimes a major nationwide strike, armed resistance or something similar is needed to defend democracy, justice and humane values. Perhaps this is something you should have done. I dont remember seeing 2 million people laying a siege on the capitol because of these crimes.

Your inability to defend justice and you ignorant, greedy and lazy lifestyle is bearing its fruit. If you dont start behaving there is certainly more to come. Thus in democratic and free society collective punishment is if not recommendable then its at least justified.