9/11 victims deserved their fate

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Dissident


most of it stems from support of Israel. If we had never supported the creation of the state of Israel, we might not be in this mess.

I don't believe it can be traced back to one particular event. There is a fundamental contradiction with the 3rd world. If there is a contradiction, a pretext can always be found.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by laurentius
The point is that if a supposedly democratic country is lead by war criminals the people must act! And if majority still votes them to 2nd term you got to start considering alternative means to remove the war criminals from power. This was done in Serbia for example.

Sometimes a major nationwide strike, armed resistance or something similar is needed to defend democracy, justice and humane values. Perhaps this is something you should have done. I dont remember seeing 2 million people laying a siege on the capitol because of these crimes.

So your huffing and puffing about a "democracy" is bull****, because these are decidedly undemocratic measures to oppose such policies.

I don't recall seeing 2 million Iraqi people beseige Saddam's palace to oust him. Under your logic, I suppose all those Iraqi people were complicit in Saddam's crimes. So I guess they weren't innocent, either, so all the crying about how the U.S. was unjustly murdering them is a load of crocodile tears. Hey, if they didn't have the will to overthrow Saddam, they must have been complicit, right?

Your inability to defend justice and you ignorant, greedy and lazy lifestyle is bearing its fruit. If you dont start behaving there is certainly more to come. Thus in democratic and free society collective punishment is if not recommendable then its at least justified.

Yeah, I don't think you know jack squat about my or anyone else's "lazy, greedy" lifestyle. Nor do you have any grounds to criticize my behavior. I seriously doubt I and most everyone I know has a significantly different lifestyle than you do.

I'm amazed at your sanctimony, because you're a citizen of a country equally as guilty of the "crimes" you cite against the Middle East that led to the September 11th attacks. Your country participated in Gulf War I, your country supports Israel's existence, your country makes billions of $$ in big finance. Guess if someone plows a plane into your ass, it's all on your own head, eh?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by laurentius
Who says OBL had any influence over the combat teams?

Some one had to pay for the 12 men living in the US for several months not to mention the flying lessons.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


So your huffing and puffing about a "democracy" is bull****, because these are decidedly undemocratic measures to oppose such policies.

I don't recall seeing 2 million Iraqi people beseige Saddam's palace to oust him. Under your logic, I suppose all those Iraqi people were complicit in Saddam's crimes. So I guess they weren't innocent, either, so all the crying about how the U.S. was unjustly murdering them is a load of crocodile tears. Hey, if they didn't have the will to overthrow Saddam, they must have been complicit, right?

No, you just didnt get it. Iraq under Saddam wasnt democratic, it was a totalitarian state where the police could take you in the middle of the night and you wouldnt be heard anymore. This isnt the case with US is it?

Yeah, I don't think you know jack squat about my or anyone else's "lazy, greedy" lifestyle. Nor do you have any grounds to criticize my behavior. I seriously doubt I and most everyone I know has a significantly different lifestyle than you do.

I'm amazed at your sanctimony, because you're a citizen of a country equally as guilty of the "crimes" you cite against the Middle East that led to the September 11th attacks. Your country participated in Gulf War I, your country supports Israel's existence, your country makes billions of $$ in big finance. Guess if someone plows a plane into your ass, it's all on your own head, eh?

I'm not aiming personally at you. Or maybe I am, depending how old you are. The point is that you Americans rather sit in front of TV watching super bowl and continue driving with cheap fuel than care how it is being made possible to you. Thats what makes you lazy, both intellectually as well as physically as it is well known. You have shown to be extremely greedy when it comes to robbing natural resources or treating individual workers like **** in the name of shareholder value and corporate profits.

I'm a citizen of Finland. We have not been bombing anyone lately, we have not been supporting corruptive, totalitarian or semi fascist regimes because of our own economical or political interests. My country is not guilty of anything that is going on in the ME unlike yours. My country did certainly NOT participate in Gulf War I, my country sustains diplomatic ties with Israel just like it does with everyone else. We are not actively SUPPORTING Israel annually with billions of dollars. We dont have military bases in foreign counties and we dont make billions from other peoples misery we merely sell cell phones so that people could talk more to each other.

So dont try to drag me into your moral filth. If someone would bomb us for 10 years I would be more than happy to kill couple of thousand enemies and perish doing so if necessary. Yeah I'm no saint, I believe retaliation is sometimes a necessity. How else would you ever learn anything?

[Patroklos]

"You've got to learn, " the line went, "that when you push people around, some people push back."

I think anyone using this logic to justify attacking the US should be very careful. There are very few people alive that have seen America give a full on push.

[/quote]If it's okay to kill civilians to get at Hussein, then it's okay to fly a plane into the Pentagon. If you acept the logic that it's okay to kill civilians, you're stuck. Since I don't accept the logic that it's okay to kill civilians, I can freely criticize both.[quote]

I can't think of a target in Iraq, either time, or in the muslim world in general where we went for the 1/3000 target to civilian kill ratio.

Of course there were no military targets at the WTC. I would be highly suprised if the attackers ever bothered to figure out who had offices there. If they were after the CIA, crash into Langley. If they happened to get a legitimate target in NYC, it was by accident.

[chequita guevara]

If the half of Americans who were opposed to the war before the Pres launched went on strike to stop it from happening, I guarantee that the war wouldn't have happened.

If that half had all participated in actions to stop the war from happening, it wouldn't have happened.

If they'd all sent their congressmen a letter telling them to oppose funding, there would have been no war.

Instead, they sat on their asses, because despite the opposition to the war, it doesn't really impact them. Even if we kill tens of thousands on the other side of the world, well, their lives really don't mean that much anyway.

If all you do is vote, you aren't participating in your democracy anyway.

[Patroklos]

No, you just didnt get it. Iraq under Saddam wasnt democratic, it was a totalitarian state where the police could take you in the middle of the night and you wouldnt be heard anymore. This isnt the case with US is it?

Your right, because my government is democratic and acting like it is supposed to. That is the reason your wrong.

[Patroklos]

Thats what makes you lazy

You accuse us of controing and dominating the world while slaughtering on a global scale and then call us lazy?

You ever been on campaign L, I bet it is a little more arduous than your sloth lifestyle.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If the half of Americans who were opposed to the war before the Pres launched went on strike to stop it from happening, I guarantee that the war wouldn't have happened.

If that half had all participated in actions to stop the war from happening, it wouldn't have happened.

If they'd all sent their congressmen a letter telling them to oppose funding, there would have been no war.

Instead, they sat on their asses, because despite the opposition to the war, it doesn't really impact them. Even if we kill tens of thousands on the other side of the world, well, their lives really don't mean that much anyway.

If all you do is vote, you aren't participating in your democracy anyway.

Exactly!

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Patroklos


You accuse us of controing and dominating the world while slaughtering on a global scale and then call us lazy?

You ever been on campaign L, I bet it is a little more arduous than your sloth lifestyle.

The thing is you dont control very much anything, you certainly dont dominate. It more of alullaby your media is singing to you every night. I guess thats why you act like you would own the planet. Well Sir, I can tell you it pisses some people off every once and a while

And what kind of campaign are we talking about here?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Some things to consider. Ward Churchill is a member of a group of people the United States nearly exterminated; he's an American Indian, a member of the Cherokee nation. Aside from the genocide of the preceeding centuries, as a member of the American Indian Movement in the 1970s, he was subject to government harrassment, surveilence. At least 60 others in his group were killed by FBI organized death squads on the Pine Ridge Res in the mid 1970s. Churchill has a legitimate axe to grind.

It would seem that others have something to say about his legitamacy as a member of the American Indian culture.


[quote]American Indian Movement

The American Indian Movement Grand Governing Council representing the National and International leadership of the American Indian Movement once again is vehemently and emphatically repudiating and condemning the outrageous statements made by academic literary and Indian fraud, Ward Churchill in relationship to the 9-11 tragedy in New York City that claimed thousands of innocent people’s lives.

Churchill’s statement that these people deserved what happened to them, and calling them little Eichmanns, comparing them to Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann, who implemented Adolf Hitler’s plan to exterminate European Jews and others, should be condemned by all.

The sorry part of this is Ward Churchill has fraudulently represented himself as an Indian, and a member of the American Indian Movement, a situation that has lifted him into the position of a lecturer on Indian activism. He has used the American Indian Movement’s chapter in Denver to attack the leadership of the official American Indian Movement with his misinformation and propaganda campaigns.

Ward Churchill has been masquerading as an Indian for years behind his dark glasses and beaded headband. He waves around an honorary membership card that at one time was issued to anyone by the Keetoowah Tribe of Oklahoma. Former President Bill Clinton and many others received these cards, but these cards do not qualify the holder a member of any tribe. He has deceitfully and treacherously fooled innocent and naïve Indian community members in Denver, Colorado, as well as many other people worldwide. Churchill does not represent, nor does he speak on behalf of the American Indian Movement.

New York’s Hamilton College Kirklands Project should be aware that in their search for truth and justice, the idea that they have hired a fraud to speak on Indian activism is in itself a betrayal of their goals.

Che, your penchant for being taken in by hucksters like Churchill and Marx is amusing.

[Dis]

yeah he's not a real indian. I am. I have DNA testing to back me up. though I'm less than 25% american indian, it doesn't matter.

I still can ***** about the white man all I want. american imperialism

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by laurentius
No, you just didnt get it. Iraq under Saddam wasnt democratic, it was a totalitarian state where the police could take you in the middle of the night and you wouldnt be heard anymore. This isnt the case with US is it?

No, you didn't get it. You were advocating people doing undemocratic means to change the course of their government's policy. This renders your little caveat of "democracy" meaningless, as people in a dictatorship can resort to such means as well. So, since the Iraqis didn't, I guess they all share the blame for Saddam's regime of torture and bloodshed, eh?

Or I guess all those Germans in WW2 were collectively innocent, since they were also under the yoke of a brutal dictator, right?

I'm not aiming personally at you. Or maybe I am, depending how old you are.

What does age have to do with it? Plenty of elderly people also oppose such behavior by the U.S. government.

The point is that you Americans rather sit in front of TV watching super bowl and continue driving with cheap fuel than care how it is being made possible to you. Thats what makes you lazy, both intellectually as well as physically as it is well known. You have shown to be extremely greedy when it comes to robbing natural resources or treating individual workers like **** in the name of shareholder value and corporate profits.

, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. MOST Americans live well below such "shareholder value" concern. The U.S. has 8 times the population of Finland living below the poverty line, and I'd love to compare their standard of living to yours.

Despite your cartoonish view, Americans aren't, by and large, greedy fatcats sitting at corporate desks raking in profits and chortling to the bank. Again, a healthy percentage of those who died at the WTC weren't even that. They were secretaries, file clerks, temps, interns, janitors, busboys, waiters, etc. Some of them hadn't even been in the U.S. for a year. And, if you knew anything about NYC, you'd know they weren't "gas guzzlers" either, as they relied on public transportation.

Hell, not even all of the offices in the WTC were for big, evil corporations. There was a college campus inside it, you know. And plenty of companies that are big into philanthropy. But don't let that interfere with your broad brushstrokes.

And yeah, they were working to provide a quality life for their family and themselves. How dare they, huh?

I'm a citizen of Finland. We have not been bombing anyone lately, we have not been supporting corruptive, totalitarian or semi fascist regimes because of our own economical or political interests. My country is not guilty of anything that is going on in the ME unlike yours.

Oh no?

http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/Archive/2004/Dec/02-148951.html

Tell me, do you think the Al Queda terrorists look positively on that or negatively? Hmmm?

My country did certainly NOT participate in Gulf War I,

Bull****! Finland voted along with the UN to authorize the invasion of Iraq in 1990. Your government voted to authorize the invasion.

country sustains diplomatic ties with Israel just like it does with everyone else.

Your country officially recognized Israel in 1949 and, yes, maintains diplomatic relations with it. You do realize that is still part of the grievances of Al Queda, yes? They view Israel is illegitimate, and nations recognizing it are culpable. Welcome to the guilt club.

We are not actively SUPPORTING Israel annually with billions of dollars.

Finland has trade ties with Israel in excess of $150 million annually. Not much compared to the U.S., but do you think that makes a difference to Al Queda? It's still "supporting the enemy." Why don't you get off your lazy butt and demand your government cease trade ties with Israel (or the U.S., if you think it's so evil)? Not doing all you can because it's too inconvenient?

We dont have military bases in foreign counties

How many of those military bases are welcomed by the countries of those governments, and how many of the citizens of those countries who live near the bases are thankful to have the economic boon it provides?

Now, I'm not happy about us being in Iraq, but I have no moral qualms with a military base in Germany. They sure seemed worried we when talk was circulating of closing them, didn't they?

and we dont make billions from other peoples misery we merely sell cell phones so that people could talk more to each other.

Waaah, waaaah... "We just make cell phones!" Yeah, right. Hey, do you think the U.S. military utilizes any of the technology you've developed at all in their operations? Gee, I wonder. And how much trade from Finland do you think is helping to enrich the big bad U.S.? And how much of our ill-begotten billions is going to your country, helping support your infrastructure and way of life? And why aren't you bombing your government offices in protest over your ties to it? Hey, national borders are just imaginary boundaries, you know. Sitting back and absolving yourself from the collective guilt because you're in another country and are to ignorant to really bother checking out how things work in the world isn't an excuse.

Yeah I'm no saint, I believe retaliation is sometimes a necessity. How else would you ever learn anything?

Ask the British what they learned from Gandhi.

Retaliation against military targets is fine. The French did it all the time in WW2, as did others who resisted the Nazi oppression. They were smart enough to make the destinction between a government doing bad things and civilians who weren't.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If the half of Americans who were opposed to the war before the Pres launched went on strike to stop it from happening, I guarantee that the war wouldn't have happened.

If that half had all participated in actions to stop the war from happening, it wouldn't have happened.

If they'd all sent their congressmen a letter telling them to oppose funding, there would have been no war.

Instead, they sat on their asses, because despite the opposition to the war, it doesn't really impact them. Even if we kill tens of thousands on the other side of the world, well, their lives really don't mean that much anyway.

If all you do is vote, you aren't participating in your democracy anyway.

And how do you know what the people killed did? Just how do you know that none of those 3000 people didn't write letters, protest, etc.? Why should they be "guilty" for something which wasn't directly in their control, and which they may have protested?

I'm curious, were you and your wife doing all these things? Did you both stay home from work in protest over the policies, or camp in the streets, or bombard congress with letters? Did you organize mass attempts to do so?

Or were you too busy looking for/working at a job, worrying if you'll make rent or where your next meal would be coming from? If so, welcome to the world of millions of Americans. I'd be startled to learn you'd be so immoral to believe that if terrorists killed you or your wife, you'd believe that was justified because the two of you hadn't dropped your lives to become anti-war advocates.

How about those busboys, che? Did they have it coming to them? If you say yes, I'll know you're the most lame, hypocritical socialist I've ever encountered. I thought you were supposed to be defending people like that?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Boris does some pwnage.