Germany...not doing the right thing AGAIN!!! and AGAIN!

[kronic]

Originally posted by VJ
Boo.

East Germans trying to kick out ineffective socialist rule
Corrupt ruling party elites in the west banning every serious opposition movement they'll face

The NPD is far away from being an economically right wing party. They are just ultra-authoritarian (fascist).

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Patroklos


And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

I think I posted it before in another thread, but I disagree. I see no differences between a party that uses violence as strategy to reach its goals and a terrorist organization (which actually does the same). Now if the NPD follows such a strategy yet (or if there are only certain members that use violent means) is still up to debate.

[Wernazuma III]

And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

I completely disagree. With that reasoning the Nazi tyranny was perfectly legitimate as it got to power democratically and then disolved democracy. So it's legitimate when people vote to abandon democracy in, say, 2005, and in 2200 people still live under the same regime. "Hey don't blame us, your grandgrandgrandfather didn't want democracy". With similar reasoning, a majority vote would make almost anything legitimate, like 51% deciding to rot out 49% (or 67% to rot out 33% if you wish). There's more to democracy. It's not possible without equal rights and ´periodical free and secret multi-party elections.
A democracy disolving itself is not the last act of democracy but the first act of tyranny. Why would we encourage democracy in the world anyway, then?

[Patroklos]

So it's legitimate when people vote to abandon democracy in, say, 2005, and in 2200 people still live under the same regime. "Hey don't blame us, your grandgrandgrandfather didn't want democracy"

And I have been stuck with this whole democracy thing for my whole life because someones grandgrandgrandfather wasn't a fan of monarchy. Democracy is exactly what it says. All this proportional representation/multiparty stuff is your attempt to fix a flawed system in your eyes.

And I am sure if you study the Nazi rise to power you will find it was anything but democratic. Unless democratic to you means killing and beating up your competitors

[BeBMan]

Yes, there was open terror on the streets in the early 30ies. But exactly this was the way democracy was undermined, so at least for our country the consequence was to be extremely vigilant that similar things do not happen again....)

[Atahualpa]

Germany should first come under nazi rule and THEN do something against it and not before, because this is undemocratic....
Is this what some people try to argue?

[Ben Kenobi]

There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party.

Often, as we are seeing here in Canada, when the party's ideology differs from the majority of the people, the governing party has a choice. They can pragmatically hold onto power by acknowledging the people, or they can cling to their ideology, and lose power.

I'm not sure I like this party's politics but it seems to me that having left leaning political parties seeking to ban right leaning parties is little better then vis versa.

So when the Communists establish a single party state, this is somehow better than Fascists doing the same?

There is no difference, whether it is done by the right or the left.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party.

The party got 9 % of the votes,
which was enough to get to the parliament of Saxonia,
but not enough to have real power.

I think the reason why they got these 9% was not because these people who elected them all supported the neonazis, but rather Protest.
East Germany has to fight with some problems since Reunification,
especially a high rate of unemployment.

As the established parties weren´t able to date to really do something against it, extreme right wing parties like the NPD saw their chance by making promises during the election campaign that they would solve all the problems the established parties couldn´t solve (but of course without saying how they would do it )

Btw. AFAIK a similar situation like the Situation which brought the NSDAP into power. At this time germany also had to fight with massive problems (especially a high inflation) and the NSDAP promised to solve them (that they also propagated antisemitism and built up paramilitary organizations was IMHO overlooked by most people and they didn´t think much about it, as they made their choice for the NSDAP [until it was too late and Hitler was able to get supreme power as response to a terrorist attack onto the german Reichstag])

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party.

Often, as we are seeing here in Canada, when the party's ideology differs from the majority of the people, the governing party has a choice. They can pragmatically hold onto power by acknowledging the people, or they can cling to their ideology, and lose power.

Somehow, this doesn't fit the German situation. It's not like the German government was unaware of the problems or ignoring them on ideological grounds. East Germany suffers from great economic and prosperity problems. In a nutshell, they have the problem to be stuck between west and east. While the western economies grow on slow pace but on high level and the eastern post-communist economies are very dynamic, East Germany has neither because of high wages and social security. It's not possible for the German govt. to make really seperate economic policies in a unified Germany. I don't say there are no ways, but certainly it's not simply ignorance from governmental side.
Another part of the problem is that in communist Germany open discussion about the past didn't happen as it did in the western parts, thus "under the blanket" many old Nazi beliefs survived much better.
The NPD is certainly not a small threat to democracy because it's certainly tied to violence and intimidation, as has been shown in the past and as can tell people in regions where the NPD is really strong.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think the reason why they got these 9% was not because these people who elected them all supported the neonazis, but rather Protest.

East Germany has to fight with some problems since Reunification, especially a high rate of unemployment.

So there you go. An area for the current government to work on.

I know unemployment can be difficult, and takes time to change. The employment here after our recession in the early nineties, was the very last thing to recover. The same is true the other way around. The unemployment rate will climb after other economic indicators have dropped.

It's not possible for the German govt. to make really seperate economic policies in a unified Germany.

That's an ideology. It is possible, but when you believe that having all of Germany treated equally, you are not going to have this possible.

Over here, we have wealth redistribution from the wealthy provinces to the poorer ones, in an effort to renew the economic prosperity in the weaker regions. So far it has succeeded in some things, but the problem remains that the provinces have became dependent upon the money given to them from the other provinces.

This also raises resentment in the wealthier provinces, in that they feel they are being burdened by the weaker ones.

I think a more effective method to encourage investment in East Germany, is to offer credits to companies willing to relocate there. That would give some basis for rebuilding the East, as the West was rebuilt in the 40's and 50's.

If it can be done in the West, I don't see why it can't also be done in the East.

[Ben Kenobi]

Another part of the problem is that in communist Germany open discussion about the past didn't happen as it did in the western parts, thus "under the blanket" many old Nazi beliefs survived much better.

You make an interesting point about West and East. Somehow, the conditions in the other former Soviet bloc countries needs to be simulated in East Germany. They need to be able to cut costs in order to be competitive.

As for rejecting Communist ideals, this does not surprise me. When you have suffered under communism, it makes sense that you would favour the values of their staunchest enemies, particularly when you prospered under them.

I wonder what effect the polish refugees have had on the East, speaking of all the German residents in former East Prussia that had to flee their land and home, after the second world war. Did most of them settle in the East, or elsewhere?

[kronic]

Most refugees settled in the West.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Patroklos


And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

And if AQ tried to constitute itself as a political party in the United States? What would happen then?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Germany should first come under nazi rule and THEN do something against it and not before, because this is undemocratic....
Is this what some people try to argue?

No, I believe the argument which has been put forward is to punish people who commit crimes but do not ban political parties because you don't like their politics. Bebro and others have come up with some interesting counter arguments which actually seem valid to me if used in small doses.

[Giancarlo]

It seems like Germany is heading down the way of Hugo Chavez.