Why the American media are so pathologically anti-Russian

[Heresson]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I am afraid your fellow East European Saras won't agree with you in what Vilnius is concerned. After all, we the evil Russkies returned Vilnius to Lithuania, thus restoring historic justice. They should be eternally thankful to us for that.
Ukrainians may not agree with you about Lvov either. After all, we returned Lvov to Ukraine.

They are partners in your crime!!!

Seriously, Vilnius and Lvov were majorly Polish, with 5% Lithuanian minority in Vilnius and 15% of Ukrainians in Lvov... And historical rights were not obvious.
It's not a matter of justice is these cities belonged to Poland or anyone else.

I am glad to see you don't hate us as such. You only hate what we are.

I only hate Serb's claims.

Do you see Russia trying to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO as imperialism?

Of course.

Under communism, perhaps. But now I see no problem. This can hardly damage our relations, which are at their lowest point ever anyway. In any case, it was just a big event in our history, worthy of a national holiday. It is not intended to damage relations with anyone.

Ah, I don't really mind. After all, we have fight with Swedes in our national anthem, and still they are the most popular of our neighbours.

Your interpretation of those events doesn't agree with ours. You are just whitewashing your nasty deeds and intentions.

I do not. I know Russia suffered some because of lisowczycy f.e. back then. But it's true that no-one wanted to actually conquer Russia. Look, our feudals were just trying to put their people on your throne.

Is it that bad?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


They are partners in your crime!!!

Seriously, Vilnius and Lvov were majorly Polish, with 5% Lithuanian minority in Vilnius and 15% of Ukrainians in Lvov... And historical rights were not obvious.
It's not a matter of justice is these cities belonged to Poland or anyone else.

well the general rule post treaty of versailles was that a city went with its hinterland, or youd have had a hundred little german islands throughout central europe, and even a few Jewish islands in eastern europe, and magyar islands in slovakia, etc.

Aside from which Vilna had onelarge group OTHER than the ethnic Lithuanians who supported Lithuanian soveriegnty in 1919. For which that minority paid dearly afterwards.

ive seen citations indicating that that group made up 41% of the population of vilna in the 1897 census.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
well the general rule post treaty of versailles was that a city went with its hinterland, or youd have had a hundred little german islands throughout central europe, and even a few Jewish islands in eastern europe, and magyar islands in slovakia, etc.

The surroundings of Vilnius were Polish then and remained until today.

Aside from which Vilna had onelarge group OTHER than the ethnic Lithuanians who supported Lithuanian soveriegnty in 1919. For which that minority paid dearly afterwards.
ive seen citations indicating that that group made up 41% of the population of vilna in the 1897 census.

hm? How come anyone has information what souvereignity people in Vilnius wanted?
What group are You referring to?
And what was the price they've paid afterwards?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


The surroundings of Vilnius were Polish then and remained until today.

LOTM - thats not my impression, but I stand open to demographic data, maps, etc.

hm? How come anyone has information what souvereignity people in Vilnius wanted?
What group are You referring to?
And what was the price they've paid afterwards?

The group was the jews - their preferences in 1919 were expressed by their communal leadership IIUC, though i dont have references handy. I will refrain from discussing the price they paid in 1919 to 1939.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Nostalgia for the Soviet Union,

Really? You mean the Nation?

taking quotes out of context,

If you could indicate a single quote allowing ambiguous interpretation when taken out of context... I didn't notice any.

taking for granted that being surrounded by NATO means being isolated (surrounded? China is in NATO? Kazakhstan? odd definition of surrounded)

The European part of Russia is its most important, core part. And it is it that gets surrounded. I don't get why you so persistently try to deny the obvious.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Heresson


They are partners in your crime!!!

Seriously, Vilnius and Lvov were majorly Polish, with 5% Lithuanian minority in Vilnius and 15% of Ukrainians in Lvov... And historical rights were not obvious.
It's not a matter of justice is these cities belonged to Poland or anyone else.

Actually I don't mind if Vilnius and Lvov were given back to Poland: Vilnius in order to teach Saras a lesson, Lvov in order to reduce the russophobic element in Ukraine.

Of course.

SInce when resistance to being encircled by a hostile military alliance counts as imperialism?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


The group was the jews - their preferences in 1919 were expressed by their communal leadership IIUC, though i dont have references handy. I will refrain from discussing the price they paid in 1919 to 1939.

The statesment by Jewish leaders does not apply to all the Jews of Vilnius, of which many were speaking Polish and felt Polish.
And what horrible happened to Jews of Vilnius in the middlewar period? I really want to know.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Really? You mean the Nation?

LOTM - yup. Buncha old stalinists over there. They call themselves "progressives" of course.



The European part of Russia is its most important, core part. And it is it that gets surrounded. I don't get why you so persistently try to deny the obvious.

Well lets see to the north of European russia is the arctic ocean. To the east of european russia is, er, asian russia. to the south of european russia is the transcaucasus and Iran. Oh and about a couple of hundred(?) miles of Turkey, with Syria just beyond that.

Russia is "surrounded" by NATO on the west, the west and the west.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


The statesment by Jewish leaders does not apply to all the Jews of Vilnius, of which many were speaking Polish and felt Polish.
And what horrible happened to Jews of Vilnius in the middlewar period? I really want to know.

IIUC most Vilna jews spoke Yiddish in 1919, and those who were "assimilated" spoke Russian. By 1939 that had changed of course, and some spoke Polish.

The Jews of Vilna suffered alongside the other Jews of Poland in the interwar years. I really didnt want to bring all that up.

[Heresson]

You've already done that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson
You've already done that.

I tried to do it subtly, not to make it so explicit. Whatever.

BTW, i was mistaken above. The vilna jews suffered specifically. IIUC Pilsudski finally stopped these activities (good for him) Here are some descriptions:

""p.70
…that Jews ostensibly threw boiling water from the windows at Polish soldiers, that they spied for the Bolsheviks, that Jews snitched or that they were responsible for military defeats. The agitated military and civilian masses took out their anger on the Jews, hundreds of innocent victims died, thousands were injured, and countless others were left permanently disabled. Women were violated, Jewish properties were plundered, burnt, and destroyed. Jews were rounded up for forced labor, were beaten, and humiliated. The war was engineered on two fronts: setbacks on the military front were championed by the Poles as "victory" on the "Jewish front".

Not a day went by when "Haynt-censors notwithstanding-failed to report about the horrific pogroms, looting and assaults that the military, together with the local peasants and hooligans, committed against the Jews. During the Polish March to Kiev and thereafter, when the Bolsheviks entered Warsaw during their counter-offensive and even later, as the Polish army repelled the Russians, the pogroms and looting continued not only in the territories spanning the military lines on the front, but in all of Poland, including Warsaw, Jews were incessantly beaten and robbed. "Haynt" volume 109 (May 13, 1909) published the official communiqué from the official Polish telegraph agency "PAT", that by order of the Prime Minister a special commission was to be created to investigate the events in the Kolbusiev, Rap****z, and Zheshoveh districts (western Galicia) which were "somewhat", according to the communiqué, "hostile to their Jewish population". No one ever found out what the commission's findings were and, in fact, what they had concluded. Two separate, bloody, pogroms occurred during those horrible days, weeks and months that were uniquely violent and took the lives of over 100 innocent Jews. These were the Vilna and Lida pogroms.

The pogrom in Vilna lasted three days, during Chol Hamoyed, Pesach (Passover), 1919. The Polish Army entered Vilna on April 19 and two days later, on the seventh day of Pesach, the army entered the neighborhood of the talented writer Isaac-Mayer Devenishsky (1878-1919), who published under the psudonym A. Vayter. He was staying at the home of the literary-historian and critic Shmuel Niger (1883-1955) and the poet Leib Yaffeh (1876-1948). Soldiers burst

p.71

into the building, violently dragged Vayter out in the street and shot him. Niger and Yaffeh survived amongst hundreds of other Jews who were arrested in Vilna and were driven out under a hail of bullets to Lida. The number of Vilna Jews murdered during that pogrom has never been firmly established. According to the Vilna registry of the (First World) War years and occupation, published in Vilna in 1922 (pages 319-321), in the suburb of Lopuvka alone 67 victims died; the English-Yiddish encyclopedia (volume 16, column 147) discloses that 80 Jews were murdered in the pogrom. The pogrom was marked by barbaric murders and terrifying violence; several victims were forced to dig their own graves prior to execution, while others were buried alive. The number of people taken during the mass arrests filled up two prisons, the railway station, the post-office courtyard, several private houses, and the local bank. According to a Vilna community report, between January 1, 1919 and August 15, 1920 (pages 6-8), hundreds of Jews, irrespective of age and gender, were viciously beaten either in their homes or on the streets and they were then thrown in jail. They were held without food or drink and were submitted to gross humiliation, physical and mental.

The majority of the arrested Jews were held in isolation in Lida and Bialystok, others were deported far from home to Kalisce, Krakow, and other towns in western Poland. "Haynt" (No. 110) from May 14, 1919 published a note that a Jewish delegation (commission) went out to Bialystok on May 13 in an attempt to arrange release for the interned Vilna Jews, which the delegation estimated to number around 400. A list of 155 Vilna Jews, living in Lida, was published in "Haynt" (No. 111), May 15, 1919 and a second list of 71 imprisoned Jews from Pinsk and Vilna was published two weeks later in No. 121, May 27, 1919. That group of prisoners was dispatched to the military camp Szczypiorno near Kalisz (Old: Kalisch). The same delegation informed "Haynt" that since the day they left Vilna, a week earlier, 56 dead were taken to Israel for burial. It should be noted that the arrested Jews remained in detention for a lengthy period prior to being released.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Well lets see to the north of European russia is the arctic ocean. To the east of european russia is, er, asian russia. to the south of european russia is the transcaucasus and Iran. Oh and about a couple of hundred(?) miles of Turkey, with Syria just beyond that.

Russia is "surrounded" by NATO on the west, the west and the west.

Don't play silly. If Ukraine joins NATO, NATO will be 350 miles from Moscow not only in the west, but also in the south.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Don't play silly. If Ukraine joins NATO, NATO will be 350 miles from Moscow not only in the west, but also in the south.

If Israel accepts the '67 armistice lines as a border, the palestinian state will be a short walk from the Knesset building, on the north, the east and the south.

[Heresson]

Sad if it is true.
If it is, or if it is not I don't know for sure.
Even if some of the mentioned was caused by other things than race hatred (I doubt only Jews suffered during this period), some truth is probably present, even if the quote itself seems a bit biased ("Jewish front" part).
What's the book?
Any sites on the matter?
Any examples of persecutions of Jews by any organisation of Polish state except for alleged pogroms during this military campaign?

[Heresson]

Btw, Vilnius was inhabited by Poles as were its surroundings, and belonged to Poland before to Russia.
I doubt local Jews started learning Polish only after ww1