Nuevo Proyecto Civ II

[El León]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III But it would be weird in the mesoamerican cosmos if the place from where the Gods originated were in the east or north.

In terms of the cosmology, maybe. But all the Chichimec tribes came from the north, on one hand.

On the other hand, it may not be too weird to say that "civilization" came from the east. Think about this scenario: The olmec culture lived on in mayan culture. Mayans took it to Yucatan. From there, they could have crossed the Gulf and ended in the Huaxtec region. Chichimec tribes on the way to the central valleys of Mexico could have passed through and picked up all the Quetzalcóatl and "civilization" stuff. (The utoaztecan linguistic family extends pretty far north, thus the chichimecs could have come from further north than is believed).

By the way, here is what they are calling the "missing link" between the Olmecs and Mayans: a frieze from Calakmul dated 400 B.C. just discovered.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by El Leon
In terms of the cosmology, maybe. But all the Chichimec tribes came from the north, on one hand.

True, but not all mythological places are the original places of Chichimec tribes. Like Teotihuacán for example

On the other hand, it may not be too weird to say that "civilization" came from the east. Think about this scenario: The olmec culture lived on in mayan culture. Mayans took it to Yucatan. From there, they could have crossed the Gulf and ended in the Huaxtec region. Chichimec tribes on the way to the central valleys of Mexico could have passed through and picked up all the Quetzalcóatl and "civilization" stuff. (The utoaztecan linguistic family extends pretty far north, thus the chichimecs could have come from further north than is believed).

Well, quite a bit of the Mexican culture will probably have come from the east (they paid it back ) Yet the Quetzalcoatl stories, at least if we're talking about Topiltzin Ce Acatl, are definitely related to the Toltecs and Tula itself. I would think it were weird if the Chichimecs had passed through the eastern mesoamerica though, too little direct influence, or so it seems. It would be funny though if Historians would be on a complete wrong way with the "toltecized Mayans" of Chichén Itzá. Imagine that tribes first got there, invented the typical architectural forms AND THEN went to Tula... Pure brainstorming, sorry.


Actually I do believe that the "Uto-Aztecs" (what a stupid denomination...) migrated from what is nowadays USA once, the question is only how long before the arrival in central Mexico had they been dwelling there?

By the way, here is what they are calling the "missing link" between the Olmecs and Mayans: a frieze from Calakmul dated 400 B.C. just discovered.

Yeah, I've heard about it. Great to see a picture

BTW. do you have the passage in Sahagún about Tamoanchán? Which edition do you own?

[El León]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
True, but not all mythological places are the original places of Chichimec tribes. Like Teotihuacán for example

Aggravated by the cultural assimilation of features of other groups. Like the case of the three Tezcatlipocas - in the end, the only "Aztec" one is Huitzilopochtli. Xipe Totec they got from the Yopitzincas and Tezcatlipoca from the Toltecs.

Well, quite a bit of the Mexican culture will probably have come from the east (they paid it back ) Yet the Quetzalcoatl stories, at least if we're talking about Topiltzin Ce Acatl, are definitely related to the Toltecs and Tula itself. I would think it were weird if the Chichimecs had passed through the eastern mesoamerica though, too little direct influence, or so it seems. It would be funny though if Historians would be on a complete wrong way with the "toltecized Mayans" of Chichén Itzá. Imagine that tribes first got there, invented the typical architectural forms AND THEN went to Tula... Pure brainstorming, sorry.

The frieze's importance may be precisely that it advances the "mayanized toltecs" hypothesis. Ce Acatl Topiltzin, Quetzalcóatl of the Huaxtecs (the oldest one, apparently), and the leader of the Cholulan settlement are probably all different people. But the main priest of a god was named after the god, if I recall correctly, and was often identified. So they are all the same archetypal figure (an Apollo of sorts, as much as i hate interprestaions of mesoamerica based on european models). BTW, along with the frieze they discovered a massive vault... from 400 BC!

Actually I do believe that the "Uto-Aztecs" (what a stupid denomination...) migrated from what is nowadays USA once, the question is only how long before the arrival in central Mexico had they been dwelling there?

??? They may have migrated all from northwestern Mexico - I'm only saying it's a possibility.

BTW. do you have the passage in Sahagún about Tamoanchán? Which edition do you own?

Don't own it. I found the reference in some notes of mine from when I was doing research on the "atlantean" archetype in Mexico for a documentary. ((Which never got of the ground - producers )
Of course, Quetzalcóatl was the center of the whole thing.
I believe the reference is in the chapter where he discusses the Huaxtecs. First he discusses the ocean crossing and disembarking and several parapgraphs ahead he mentions Quetzalcóatl and Tamoanchan, if I recall correctly. I'll try to find the reference in the library.

[El León]

Did something stange happen and all the most recent posts get deleted? Oh well. It was a nice discussion.

Este thread se muda:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=72005

EDIT - Nope, they're there. Apolyton playing with my head once more.