Nuevo Proyecto Civ II

[Prometeus]

'azz... Again that **************** problem...

[Prometeus]

Ok now goes better...

[El León]

Who wrote the book? It seems to me like a short version of my main source, Robert H. Barlow's "The Extent of the Culhua-Mexica Empire". By the way, a good link about this:

Mexica Empire Project

[Prometeus]

Jacques Soustelle, The Aztecs.

The book you mentioned is amongst the sources. Nevermind, then.

[Wernazuma III]

About Tamoanchan: Isn't it said that Tamoanchan lies at Cihuatlampa (in the west, just to confuse us all three even more). At least Alcina Franch claims this...


edit: forgot the m in cihuatlampa

[El León]

Well, it does sound like a Huaxtec name. Compare:
Tamuin, Tanlajas, Tampaon, Tancolol, Tancahuitz. In fact, I have heard that Tamoanchan was the Huaxtec name for the region around modern Ciudad Valles...

[Wernazuma III]

Or maybe it's just the place where our our "souls" are born...

[El León]

Actually, you are probably onto something. Some references to Tamoanchán may be geographical and others mythological, as happens with Chicomoztoc or Aztlán. The Nahuas had this annoying habit of naming goegraphical places after mythological ones.

Another example is Mictlan (now Mitla) in Oaxaca. You don't have to be dead to visit.

[Wernazuma III]

Yes, this seems to be a general specific of all mesoamerican cultures. The journey to the Quiché-Mayan underworld Xibalba in the Popol Vuh is good mapable on the Yucatec landscape. Mythology and real geography merge into one. One could argue that Teotihuacán and Tamoanchàn are the same places too, for both are considered to be the original places, where the Gods come from.

[El León]

Very true. In fact, I recently visited an exhibit in the national museum of anthropology in Mexico about the Huicholes. (It is a wonderful museum - do you know it?)
They live in a world with no conflict of geographical and mythological. A physical rock in the sea near San Blas is the dwelling place of the sea goddess, the desert around Real de 14 is Wirikuta, the paradise on earth.
Which brings us back to where we started. Tamoanchán must be a physical place.
I don't know about Teotihuacán. Somehow I associate Tamoanchán with water and Quetzalcóatl (my Tamoanchán mental file is rusty), which is why I lean towards the Huaxtec region.

[Wernazuma III]

Tamoanchán like Xochatlalpan is associated with the cosmological "life tree. As Xochatlalpan is regularly identified as identical to Tlalocan, we could also say it's to the south.
It's got something to do with Quetzalcóatl but I'm not sure about the exact story. But it would be weird in the mesoamerican cosmos if the place from where the Gods originated were in the east or north.

[Wernazuma III]

And no, I don't know the museum. (Believe it or not, I never physically stayed in Mexico.)

[Prometeus]

Indipendent enclaves into Mexica empire.

[El León]

Great Map, Prom. Especially helpful with northern Tototepec, which I had not been able to find.
1. The Tlaxcallans will be represented by a civ of their own. When the Spaniards arrive, this civ will have a little boost... dont' want to give away all the surprises.
2. Metztitlan and the northern Tototepec will be one and the same, and owned by the Otomà civ, which will also hold the Matlalzinca (Toluca) valley at the beginning).
3. Southern Tototepec will be easy pickings for the Mixtecos initially. When northern Mixtec cities fall, they will be strengthened in this part of the map.

The Yopitzincas will be all barbarians... With a nasty defense, all-as-road move, and mountainous territory with fortresses.

[El León]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Tamoanchán like Xochatlalpan is associated with the cosmological "life tree. As Xochatlalpan is regularly identified as identical to Tlalocan, we could also say it's to the south.
It's got something to do with Quetzalcóatl but I'm not sure about the exact story.

Found it! Bernardino de Sahagún (the first civilized Spaniard in Mexico ) says that Quetzalcoatl led the Huaxtecs, who came from the ocean. They landed in the mouths of the Pánuco and settled in Tamoanchan.
Ciudad Valles is just inland of the Pánuco, and looks like paradise to me: