Gibraltarian Civ.

[Estilpón]

¿ya te habías hecho ilusiones?

[jasev]

Bah! When I saw the thread's title I thought you were referring to our lovely common friend.

Me too

[Pco]

La solución podria no ser otra que acabar con su paraiso fiscal impedir sus rapiñas financieras y controlar su descarado contrabando , a lo mejor entonces se entregaban solitos .

Para mi Gibraltar es español , otra cosa es lo que sean los gibraltareños , pero a efectos practicos Gibraltar no es mas que una garrapata económica y una ofensa diplomática.

[Jacobite1688]

I understand your language much better then I speak it, so I will use my own.

Gibralter has belonged to the British Royal House longer then it ever was part of the Spainish Royal lands. That said, the British have no good reason for retaining spoils of war from 300 years ago. How about we make a Britian versus Spain Civ II Scenario and get King Juan Carlos and Elizabeth to play it out on MGE once and for all

Another interesting feature of the Treaty of Utrecht was it forbade any Spanish Bourbon from ever claiming the throne of France. This is relavent (sort of) in that King Juan Carlos is the senior descendant of Huge Capet and therefore, were not for the Treaty of Utrecht, would be the heir to the vaccant throne of France.

In short: You guys got shafted in 1713!

[jasev]

Gibralter has belonged to the British Royal House longer then it ever was part of the Spainish Royal lands.

False. Gibraltar was conquered by the Crown of Castile in 1309. It was later conquered by the Kingdom of Granada, but in 1492 the Crowns of Castile, Aragon and Granada (and any years later, the kingdom of Navarra) formed the kingdom of Spain. So, according to international laws, Gibraltar was Spanish about 400 years.

[Estilpón]

and two points:
1. Gibraltar IS a colony: not a territory of the UK
2. Gibraltar becames a colony with an international treaty. This treaty indicates the solutions of the conflict...

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by jasev
False. Gibraltar was conquered by the Crown of Castile in 1309.

No, es verdad, Amigo. My research shows that in 1462 Gibraltar was conquered, but not by the Crown of Castile. It was not even FOR the Crown of Castile. No, Alonzo de Arcos accepted the surrender of the Moors on the feast of St. Bernard, which is why he became the patron of Gibraltar. The city and territory of Gibraltar was given as a gift to the Duke of Medina-Sidonia in full soverignty for himself and his house. Ferdinand and Isabella confirmed this gift, conferring on the Duke the title of Marquis of Gibraltar; at a later period, however, during the same reign, the place was later added to the Crown lands. About 300 years before the arrival of the British.

Never the less, you assert:

Originally posted by jasev
It was later conquered by the Kingdom of Granada, but in 1492 the Crowns of Castile, Aragon and Granada ... formed the kingdom of Spain. So, according to international laws, Gibraltar was Spanish about 400 years.

What ''international laws'' are you refering to?

[jasev]

No, es verdad, Amigo

A nice job, but still incomplete. Gibraltar was conquered in 1309 by Pérez de Guzmán for the crown of Castilla. So it became spanish. Soon after, it was conquered by another spanish kingdom, Granada. And it was finally conquered by castilians. No matter it was given to Medina-Sidonia, because the count of Medina-Sidonia was one of the Castillian Nobles. The properties of Medina-Sidonia included most of Cadiz, and part of Sevilla and Huelva, but those territories belonged to the crown of Castilla, though they were posessed by the Count of Medina-Sidonia.
To say that Gibraltar wasn't spanish is aproximately the same thing as saying that my home isn't a part of Spain because it belongs to me.

What ''international laws'' are you refering to?

Between 1309 and 1713, Gibraltar has belonged to Castilla, Granada, and Castilla again. Castilla and Granada are part of the Kingdom of Spain (there is a small grenada fruit in our nobility arms that confirm it), so Gibraltar was spanish even before Spain was formed.

[Jay Bee]

I guess what jasev means is that Gibraltar has been more time linked to the thing Iberian than to England. Iberia for the Iberians!!!! Give Ireland back to the Irish!!!!! Las Malvinas always always Argentines!!!!

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
I guess what jasev means is that Gibraltar has been more time linked to the thing Iberian than to England. Iberia for the Iberians!!!! Give Ireland back to the Irish….

I agree with this point with my whole heart. We are, indeed splitting hairs on the issue of how long Gibraltar was in Spanish possession prior to the British take-over. That said, I will continue to defend my point until I am convinced that I am mistaken. (I am OFTEN mistaken, I am just not so sure that this is one of those times.)

Originally posted by jasev
Gibraltar was conquered in 1309 by Pérez de Guzmán for the crown of Castilla. So it became spanish.

Convengo...

Originally posted by jasev
Soon after, it was conquered by another spanish kingdom, Granada.

Whoa! Hold it, What constitutes a "spanish kingdom"? Is it the fact that it was geographically Iberian? That would mean Portugal is "spanish kingdom". Is it the fact that the population was mostly "Spanish"? According to one source King Alfonso el Batallador led his forces deep into Granada but was defeated. Some of the Christians departed with the king, and the Almohades carried off the remainder by force to Morocco. From that point until the final liberation, the Christian (Spanish) population consisted only of captives and foreigners. To say that Granada was a Spanish Kingdom is approximately the same thing as saying that Robert the Bruce was ruler of a British Kingdom, or better yet, that the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was Mameluk.

Originally posted by jasev
To say that Gibraltar wasn't spanish is aproximately the same thing as saying that my home isn't a part of Spain because it belongs to me.

We are not dealing with ownership here, but rather sovereignty. Parts of kingdoms often had rulers that were sovereign in their own right. Marcher Lords, Bishops, Archbishops, some Dukes, some Kings, etc. Spain was no different and had sovereign rulers who fought with "Spain" or against "Spain" as the political mood suited them. You are the owner of property, but you cannot levy taxes, conscript an army or negotiate with foreign powers. (Not that I know of, maybe Spanish law is very different from the rest of the West's) Sovereign rulers, such as Medina-Sidonia, could do all these things.

Originally posted by jasev
Castilla and Granada are part of the Kingdom of Spain (there is a small grenada fruit in our nobility arms that confirm it), so Gibraltar was spanish even before Spain was formed.

Again, was Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem part of the Ottoman Empire in the 12th century? Of course not. It had been part of the Caliphate from the seventh century. It was traded between the Latins and differing Muslim powers a number of times and eventually came to be part of the Ottoman Empire but one could not say that “Jerusalem was Ottoman even before the Empire was formed.” As for the pomegranate in the coat-of-arms of Spain, the English kings laid claim to France in the 14th century and added the arms of France to their own. They kept the arms of France on their arms until the beginning of the 19th century, in spite of the fact that they had not held a scrap of French land in over three centuries. In the case of Granada, the pomegranate was not added until AFTER the conquest was completed. The arms of the Reyes Católicos were: Quarterly, 1. and 4. quarterly Castile-Leon, 2. and 3. Aragon and Aragon-Sicily. The conquest of Granada was symbolized by the addition at the bottom the arms. This was to demonstrate a new reality, not to confirm something that was long accepted.

Just my thoughts...

[Jay Bee]

Portugal, no matter how they like/dislike it, WAS a Spanish kingdom. Portugal is as Spain as is Castile, Andalusia or Gibraltar. Problem is, the meaning of 'Spain' has changed with time, so Portugal is no longer Spain. Does that make any sense?

(pleez ignore me if you must )

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Portugal, no matter how they like/dislike it, WAS a Spanish kingdom. Portugal is as Spain as is Castile, Andalusia or Gibraltar. Problem is, the meaning of 'Spain' has changed with time, so Portugal is no longer Spain. Does that make any sense?

I'll buy that, Charles V certainly felt Portugal was Spanish.

J.B., your interview lured me into the forum.

Muchas gracias, amigo.

[Fiera]

Let's hope you choose to stay here for a long time, Jacobite!

[Waku]

yup, you're exquisitely defending your thoughts despite you're the cat in this dogs' party

welcome

[jasev]

Whoa! Hold it, What constitutes a "spanish kingdom"? Is it the fact that it was geographically Iberian? That would mean Portugal is "spanish kingdom".

Not at all. Granada is a spanish kingdom like the kingdom of Sevilla, Aragón, Valencia, Cataluña, León, Castilla and Navarra. All of these kingdoms form the kingdom of Spain. Portugal did, but now doesn't.

Again, was Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem part of the Ottoman Empire in the 12th century? Of course not. It had been part of the Caliphate from the seventh century.

It's not a good example. The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalen disappeared when the Ottomans recovered it.
These are the "international laws" I was talking about. When the ottomans recovered the kingdom, the sultan didn't become King of Jerusalén; he only added the city to his domains. The kings of Spain, though, became also kings of Granada.

In the case of Granada, the pomegranate was not added until AFTER the conquest was completed

That's what I'm talking about. They could have added the city to one of the already existing kingdoms (Castilla, Aragón, even Sevilla) but they preferred to maintain the kingdom, becoming their rulers.

According to one source King Alfonso el Batallador led his forces deep into Granada but was defeated. Some of the Christians departed with the king, and the Almohades carried off the remainder by force to Morocco.

The almohades were the last foreing invasors of Spain; during their rule, the moslim Spain was only a province of the Sultanate of Morocco. But their rule was short; Granada became independent in 1237, and the almohades totally disappeared in 1269, when the Benimerines conquered their capital in Morocco.

Granada was a spanish kingdom; their rulers were spanish, so like their inhabitants. When the spanish kings conquered it, they knew that and added the kingdom to the new state, but the kingdom of Granada still existed, like the kingdom of Sevilla or the kingdom of Navarra (conquered about 1517). Granada was a moslim kingdom, but this is part of our cultural legacy.