Magic Gets a Facelift

[Chowlett]

Obiwan - no, it doesn't. It is stated on every sliver card that it shares it's ability with all other slivers - but it's not an inherent rule (I know, I read them before going to the pre-release).

The only creature types with inherent abilities are Wall (can't attack) and Legend (no more than one with the same name in play at any time). All other special types - slivers, flagbearers etc - have their rules printed on the cards.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SnowFire
UR: Hehe, I found two Autunm Willows in the commons box once.

Ugh, you lucky bugger.

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems Goblin Kings are good for Mistform Ultimus too.

[self biased]

magic lost its appeal for me somewhere after homelands. it was about then that i discovered the joys of legend of the five rings. it's actually got a story. that, and the players can influence the story, as well.

[Ben Kenobi]

Chowlett,

Hopefully, there will be a WotC ruling to confirm this position. I do believe slivers have an inherent ability, in the same sense as walls or legends have inherent abilities.

[Chowlett]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Chowlett,

Hopefully, there will be a WotC ruling to confirm this position. I do believe slivers have an inherent ability, in the same sense as walls or legends have inherent abilities.

No, it is most definitely not the case. I will be most surprised if WotC erratas this. Every Wall card merely says Creature - Wall (the newer ones have italicised reminder text that walls can't attack, but it's not rules text). In contrast, sliver cards all say "All slivers gain ". It's a rules text.

Besides, with Mistforms in the game, having the Sliver rule applying to every sliver would be insane - if that were the case, you could play a White-Black-Blue deck and simply mistform your Akroma into a Sliver, and then your Phage into a sliver. You'd then have 2 Flying, First Strike, Haste, Prot Black, Prot Red, Trample, non-tapping creatures, each with the Phage ability of Death on Damage. Insane.

[Mr. President]

Slivers do not have an inherent ability. You can look at some of the original ones from Tempest to confirm this. Any sliver that grants abilities says so explicitly on the card.

[Grumbold]

Death on Damage? Ugh.

[Chowlett]

[FrustratedPoet]

/me adds 'start playing Magic again' to his list of "Things to do when I have some money"

[Ben Kenobi]

Mr. President:

I worded that poorly. Slivers do not have the inherent ability to fly, etc. However, I do think they have the intrinsic ability to share abilities. Are there any slivers without this quality, that are unable to share abilities?

Sliver Queen gains the abilities of all the slivers, and all other slivers gain the ability to produce 1/1 slivers for 2.

Chowlett:

Besides, with Mistforms in the game, having the Sliver rule applying to every sliver would be insane - if that were the case, you could play a White-Black-Blue deck and simply mistform your Akroma into a Sliver, and then your Phage into a sliver. You'd then have 2 Flying, First Strike, Haste, Prot Black, Prot Red, Trample, non-tapping creatures, each with the Phage ability of Death on Damage. Insane.

No. How does Phage or Akroma become a sliver? You could change all the slivers to Minions, but minions do not gain the phages' abilities.

Another use would be to have the Sliver Queen, Lord of the Pit and Mistform Ultimus. The sliver queen produces the token, the token slivers gain the ultimus ability, morph into minions and then feed the Pitlord.

*non-sequitor*
And she's a chick

[Mr. President]

Sorry if I sounded too harsh, Obiwan. I checked the Tempest card list, and it looks like the ancient slivers give other slivers an ability. I didn't get into Tempest and slivers the first time around.

For instance, Muscle Sliver gives all Slivers +1/+1 . So if you control a Mistform Ultimus and a Muscle Sliver, the Mistform Ultimus gets +1/+1 . Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

I'm inclined to think, though, that the Mistform Ultimus wouldn't share its ability to be all creature types at one time with other creatures (specifically slivers) since the cards that do things like that usually say so explicitly.

It might be worth asking Wizards.

Edit: There's an article about the Mistform Ultimus at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jm54 . I don't know if it's much help to this discussion, though.

Still, I couldn't help but laugh, then get a headache when I got to the part that says

The Ultimus is currently a "Creature — Abomination Aboroth Advisor Aladdin Albatross Alchemist Ali-Baba Ali-from-Cairo Alligator Ambush-Party Ancestor Angel Ant Antelope Ape Archaeologist Asp Assassin Assembly-Worker Atog Aurochs Avatar Avenger Avizoa Badger Ball-Lightning Bandit Banshee Barbarian Barishi Basilisk Bat Bear Beast Bee Beeble Behemoth Being Berserker Bird Boar Bodyguard Brother Brownie Brushwagg Bull Bureaucrat Butterfly Camarid Camel Caravan Caribou Carnivore Carriage Carrier Cat Cavalry Cave-People Centaur Cephalid Cheetah Chicken Chimera Citizen Clamfolk Cleric Clone Cobra Cockatrice Constable Cow Crab Crocodile Crusader Dandan Demon Dervish Deserter Devil Devouring-Deep Dinosaur Djinn Dog Doppelganger Dragon Dragonfly Drake Drill-Sergeant Druid Dryad Dwarf Eater Eel Effigy Efreet Egg Elder Elemental Elephant Elf El-Hajjaj Enchantress Entity Erne Essence Exorcist Faerie Fallen Farmer Ferret Fiend Fish Flagbearer Flying-Men Force Fox Frog Frostbeast Fungus Fungusaur Gaea's-Avenger Gaea's-Liege Gargoyle Gatekeeper General Ghost Ghoul Giant Gnome Goat Goblin Golem Gorgon Graveborn Gremlin Griffin Guardian Gus Gypsy Hag Harlequin Hell's-Caretaker Heretic Hero Hipparion Hippo Homarid Hornet Horror Horse Horseman Hound Hunter Hydra Hyena Illusion Imp Incarnation Infernal-Denizen Inquisitor Insect Island-Fish Jackal Jellyfish Kavu Keeper Kelp King Kithkin Knight Kobold Kraken Lady-of-Proper-Etiquette Leech Legend Legionnaire Lemure Leper Leviathan Lhurgoyf Lichenthrope Licid Lion Lizard Lord Lurker Lycanthrope Mage Maggot Maiden Mammoth Manticore Mantis Marid Martyr Master Medusa Meerkat Mercenary Merchant Merfolk Mindsucker Minion Minor Minotaur Miracle-Worker Mist Mistfolk Mob Mold-Demon Monger Mongoose Monkey Monster Mosquito Mummy Murk-Dwellers Mutant Mystic Nameless-Race Narwhal Necrosavant Nekrataal Niall-Silvain Nightmare Nightstalker Noble Nomad Octopus Ogre Ooze Orb Orc Orgg Ouphe Ox Oyster Paladin Peacekeeper Pegasus People-of-the-Woods Phantasm Phelddagrif Phoenix Pig Pikemen Pirate Pixie-Queen Plant Poison-Snake Poltergeist Pony Preacher Priest Prism Pyknite Rabbit Raider Ranger Rat Rebel Reflection Rhino Robber Roc Rock-Sled Rooster Rukh Sage Salamander Sand Saproling Satyr Scavenger Scorpion Scout Serf Serpent Shade Shapeshifter Shark Sheep Ship Shyft Sindbad Singing-Tree Sister Skeleton Sliver Slug Smith Snake Soldier Sorceress Spawn Speaker Specter Spellshaper Sphinx Spider Spike Spirit Sponge Sprite Spuzzem Spy Squire Squirrel Stangg-Twin Starfish Stone Strider Survivor Swarm Tactician Tarpan Taskmaster Tetravite The-Biggest-Baddest-Nastiest-Scariest-Creature-You'll-Ever-See Thopter Thrull Thundermare Tiger Titan Toad Tombspawn Tortoise Townsfolk Tracker Treefolk Troll Turtle Uncle-Istvan Undead Unicorn Vampire Viashino Villain Viper Volver Vulture Walking-Dead Wall War-Rider Warrior Warthog Wasp Wave Whale Whippoorwill Wight Wiitigo Wildebeest Will-o'-the-Wisp Witch Wizard Wolf Wolverine Wolverine-Pack Wolves-of-the-Hunt Wombat Wood Worm Wraith Wretched Wurm Yeti Zombie"

[SnowFire]

The Magic Rules, in all their granduer:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer,,en

Obiwan, if there was some inherent rule about Slivers, then Chowlett would be right. Mistforming any random thing into a Sliver would be insane. There's a reason why both of the two special Creature types are negative- even though Onslaught emphasized it, creature-type changey stuff has been around a long time.

In any case, I hate to say it, but the obligation is on you to prove that there is such a rule. Check the document and cite a section. A simple search reveals the word "Wall" and "Legend" both coming up several times, but "Sliver" occurs nowhere in the document. Therefore there's nothing in the rules about Slivers. And again, as already pointed out, if there was such an inherent rule, then all the Sliver abilities would be italic reminder text, not standard-type rules text.

[FrustratedPoet]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jm54

How It Works

(From the forthcoming Legions FAQ)

The types "Illusion" and "Legend" are printed on the card's type line purely for flavor. The Ultimus has every other creature type as well.

It's a Legend, so the Legend rule applies to it. It's also a Wall, so the Wall rule applies to it (although it has an ability that allows it to ignore this rule). It's also a Sliver, and so will gain all Sliver abilities.

Does that help?

It's also a Flagbearer - my god there must be a lot of cool tricks you can do with that.

[Chowlett]

Yes, but a Sliver doesn't a priori give it's ability. It just gains from other ones.

Similarly, while Mistform Ulimus is a flagbearer, because flagbearer isn't a type with an inherent rule, you're free to target stuff other than MU unless a real, concrete flagbearer is in play - at which point the rules-text on that flagbearer applies to the Ultimus.

[FrustratedPoet]

OK, I think I get it now.

Although the Ultimus is a Flagbearer it won't gain the "must be targeted" ability because Flagbearer's don't have any inherent rules.
However, once you bring out a different Flagbearer card (one that has the Flagbearer ability printed on it) the text that reads "Targeted attacks must target a Flagbearer in play" (or whatever it says) then - and only then - will the ability apply to the Ultimus.

Yes?