Military service in Israel and Starship Troopers

[Firelad]

If you want to be a friggin fascist-theocratic-racist oligarchy then go ahead...

[VetLegion]

But certainly, there is absolutely no chance of winning anything without a "good" army record.

Is good in quotes because of Sharon? I understhand what you mean though.


What about women? Do they fall for revolutionaries or regular patriots only?

[orange]

an anti-Israel Israeli??? Can it be??

[Pekka]

No, we just want to adopt that service model..

It's sleepy time.. time for me to go dream about sexy chicks in camo g-strings worshipping the sun on top of tank, fighters going Top Gun and big guns.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Oh and I will complain to the mods if anyone compares Palestinians with the Bugs

You gotta admit there are similarities

[Firelad]

Originally posted by VetLegion
What about women? Do they fall for revolutionaries or regular patriots only?

Mostly patriots only...
But it's alright, don't ask don't tell.

[Sirotnikov]

1. Military service is 3 years for men, 2 (or 2.5) years for women.

2. Women can declare they object to serving because of faith issues. This was meant to be if she is an observant religious person, but it is also used for moral excuse, since in a way this is also a "faith issue". But you do IIRC have to show that you are doing some observing.

Men can either be found mentally problematic, or not fit for service. however some of this may hurt your future career, as your personal record will show you were found "mentally problematic" (though there was / is talk of cancelling this). Most people who don't want to serve falsify or play up health issues.

Men who refuse to serve will be put in jail for a month or two at a time, and after some 3-5 times like these, will be discharged of the service.

Men and Women of arab descent are not called to the army, as a matter of policy, though they aren't exempt by law. The law only states that they state can call on every citizen. The state, to this day, usually doesn't call arabs. Though many volunteer anyway.

3. One can serve in the police, or in the civil guard. But that is not because of moral objections. That is either if you were found fit for it, or if you volunteered to serve there (many non jews volunteer for police, civil guard, border patrol etc).

You can also "serve" in non military places like the ministry of security, but that is unique - you are called there. It's usually quite high ranking jobs.

4. Yes. There are special arrangements so that each person, be he in the army, in Israel or over seas can vote. This is well oversought and is very well done. Infact, the voting rate in the IDF is very very high. These people usually care for who will be choosing their next missions.

5. You don't lose voting franchise, neither from this nor from anything short of being expelled from the country iirc.

You do go to jail for a month or two, and that goes on 3 or 5 times, until the army quits, and discharges you.

There is talk however, that if you do not serve, you shouldn't be able to vote. It's unlikely this will come through though.

6. Yes. Look for example at new immigrants from russia who hold public offices and are politicians who didn't serve.

However, ther is also talk that this may change - ie that people who refused to serve, won't be able to hold public offices.

It seems logical to me, since i think that if you're unwilling to risk your butt, there's no reason why you should ever reach a position where you could potencially risk other people by your decisions.

7. People who serve get bonuses and tax cuts and such, since serving , and the 1 month training each year for some, take up time which could have been used to start a bussiness or a family.

But on the other hand, people who don't serve are free to work etc, so I don't think there's anything wrong with this.

There are also cases where employers unofficially prefer people who did serve in the army. Some even prefer people who served as combatants over people who served in an office. And obviously people who served as high ranking officers usually don't have troubles getting good jobs, due both to their friendships and ties, and that this is considered proof that you're a "serious and talented person".

Infact a friend of mine wrote a paper in sociology on the topic of why in Israel, military stature is tied a good quality for people holding public offices. His POV was quite critical, though understanding.

[Menlas]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Ofcourse I have read it. Very good military sf.

So you think Israel is fascist, shame on you

Where did i say that ? I said the book can be considered as "fascist" on some points, not that Israel is...

[Sirotnikov]

If you want to be a friggin fascist-theocratic-racist oligarchy then go ahead...

Of please, firelad. You used to be an extreme right winger and then suddenly had a change of heart and became something like the french. So I'd be wary to trust your judgement.

There's nothing theocratic or racist about the army service.

Some can call this fascist, because they oppose war in general, but there's nothing unrealistic in having a mandatory service in a small country sorrounded by rogue states.

As far as oligarchy goes - I admit army does help to perpetuate this. But then again, if you go to a nice high ranking place, and you advance, there's no reason why you can't join the "high-society".

Plus, oligarchy exists in other places with no relation to army service.

[VetLegion]

Sirotnikov, thanks. You can vote while in jail?

So what you are saying, besides some prison time and some discrimination in job market, you do not officially lose any priviledges regarding politics. You can elect and be elected.

What about political parties? Do they accept dodgers in their membership? I would imagine they have this issue tackled in their statutes?


Btw., no offense but I can not believe any Arabs really volunteer to serve.


Menlas, j/k

And Lazarus

[Drake Tungsten]

Of please, firelad. You used to be an extreme right winger and then suddenly had a change of heart and became something like the french.

Ouch. That was a low blow, Siro.

[Firelad]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Of please, firelad. You used to be an extreme right winger and then suddenly had a change of heart and became something like the french. So I'd be wary to trust your judgement.

I believe that this is not a good way to carry out a debate
I'd say the other way around. I used to be far right some 5 years ago because of my family, and slowly moved to the left because I very slowly realized that this is what I believe in, and knowing both sides of the fence I have chosen to believe those things in which I believe now. Satisfied?

[gsmoove23]

What about the religious exemptions for orthodox jews. Isn't there some loophole where they are exempt from serving but get the same benefits?

[VetLegion]

What about the religious exemptions for orthodox jews. Isn't there some loophole where they are exempt from serving but get the same benefits?

Good question, I also remember hearing something like that... ?

[Rogan Josh]

Are you guys kidding me?

The book 'starship troopers' is not fascist - it is anti-fascist. Heinlein is pointing out how bad a society it is. He is warning about the dangers of nationalistic fascism and how easy it is to fall into when faced with an overwhelming enemy. Jeez, you guys are as bad as Ming!

Admitidly the movie kind of screws that up though....