Military service in Israel and Starship Troopers

[VetLegion]

Some things I was wondering about, and since we have many Israelis here I hope I can get accurate answers.


1. Military service is 3 years for men, women not obligatory any more, right?

2. Are there excuses you can use not to serve, like moral objections..?

3. Is there a civil service that counts like army service for those with moral objections?

4. Can you vote while you are in the army?

5. Do you lose your voting franchise if you do not serve in the army? Do you go to jail?

6. Can you hold a public office, or be a politician, if you havent served in the army?

7. Are there other things because of which you should prefer to serve?



On another forum there was a discussion about Starship Troopers by R.A.Heinlein (you have probably seen the movie). Whenever I see a discussion like that someone inevitably calls Heinlein a fascist because in the book you can not vote or hold public office if you havent served your time, so in effect only veterans have power.

I argued that first, that is not fascist, and secondly that while not exactly the same thing there already are some countries where the effect is the same, like in Israel where military service (with no excuse for moral objections) is obligatory so if you run for public office you have already served your time and in effect veterans are in power - just like in Starship Troopers


Ok friendly apolyton zionists, how far off was I?

btw., I don't need numbered answeres, I am just interested in your opinions on the matter.

[VetLegion]

Oh and I will complain to the mods if anyone compares Palestinians with the Bugs

[Menlas]

However, did you read the book Starship Troopers ?
I think it can be qualified as "fascist"...but the story is awesome

[Pekka]

A man who lives in a country with mandatory service and doesn't serve can not be trusted! It's everyones duty and everyone should feel lucky to have that opportunity. To turn that opportunity down is a crime punishable by loss of honour and trust forever!

[RGBVideo]

A man who lives in a country with mandatory service and doesn't serve can not be trusted! It's everyones duty and everyone should feel lucky to have that opportunity. To turn that opportunity down is a crime punishable by lots of honour and trust forever!

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[Pekka]

Tuome, Damn that was a bad typo . Anyway I was joking.

[Demerzel]

still a bad typo as it should be "loss of honour ..."

[VetLegion]

However, did you read the book Starship Troopers ?
I think it can be qualified as "fascist"...but the story is awesome

Ofcourse I have read it. Very good military sf.

So you think Israel is fascist, shame on you

A man who lives in a country with mandatory service and doesn't serve can not be trusted!

Well if it is mandatory those who evade it have to live in the woods and hide and steal chickens to survive and whatnot so ofcourse they can not be trusted

[Pekka]

And this is exaclty why I feel it's better to come out guns blazing, because these hippies will always start twisting your words, knowning what you mean, only making you feel stupid and bad about yourself . My words are backed with two hands and bad intentions

[Pekka]

VetLegion, Yep. And if it's one of those all-guys-outkast-groups.. you know what they do to those chickens before they eat them? Would you trust those kind of people?

[Firelad]

1. Obligatory for both men and women, 3 years plus reserve service for men, 2 years for women (mostly).

2. Theoretically, those with moral objections have the right to not serve in the army. Practically, only women have this right, because the Army turns down virtually every request by men. (something like 15 men out of thousands were given the right since the beginning of the intifada and all of them were reservists with little value to the Army). Men often resort to methods like faking insanity to get a release on medical/psychological grounds.

3. Again, only for women.

4. Yes.

5. You go to jail if you do not serve without getting a release. Jail times vary, but generally it's a month of jail time after you refuse, with a new conscription order afterwards. When you refuse again, you go to jail again. Lately they've started giving court martials (up to 3 years in jail) after about half a year, but none of the trials have been concluded yet. You can still vote if you do not go to the Army, although many are calling to revoke this right.

5. I don't know the law. But certainly, there is absolutely no chance of winning anything without a "good" army record.

6. Without serving, you can't get a job in the public sector. Also, you will be in trouble generally if people find out, since there is great animosity towards people who don't serve, esp. on moral grounds.

[VetLegion]

My words are backed with two hands and bad intentions

and a polar bear named Mukka and trained to kill. Nobody messes with The Finns

[Paul Hanson]

IIRC, Starship Troopers doesn't state that you must join the military in order to obtain the franchise, only that you must do federal service. This means that you don't necessarily have to join the armed forces; you could, for example, spend time in the civil service instead. The idea is to instill some sense of civic virtue in people, so that they understand what it means to be a citizen before they are given the rights and priviledges thereof.

[Pekka]

Firelad, I like Israel model. Can we adopt it too?

[VetLegion]

Firelad, thanks

You can still vote if you do not go to the Army, although many are calling to revoke this right.

ah damn it would be perfect without this