Recommend Ubergeek a book on Israeli history

[Zevico]

A few good ones I have come upon include Ben Gurion's political autobiography, and Arthur Kroeze's "Promise and Fulfillment".

[gsmoove23]

Some good ones I've come across...

"The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim. History of Israel beginning with the birth of zionism to Oslo. Criticized by zionists but I think its pretty objective if not a little skewed to the Israeli side.

"One Palestine Complete" by Tom Segev. History of the British Mandate in Palestine, from my perspective slightly skewed to the zionist side but almost imperceptable.

"Drinking the Sea at Gaza" by Amira Haas. Alright, if you're looking for an objective history this may not be the one to go to but if you're curious about what makes a palestinian it is very useful. Shes an Israeli journalist who lived in Gaza and describes the life. Shes pro-palestinian but gives a really good description of palestinian politics, hamas-fatah rivalry. Very good read.

[Ubergeek]

Wow, great suggestions everybody. Thanks, I will see which of these my university library has.

[Agathon]

The Bible.

[CyberGnu]

Edan: [quote[No, I mean like those caitations from marxists.de that we discussed in the last thread, that were direct copy & pastings from the website, with the exact same quotes and the same exact abbreviations, lack of pages, etc. that Kroeze has yet to account for - no doubt it's just a cosmic million to one coincidence, right?[/quote]

So you don't pretend to meet his points in this thread, but only aim to rekindle an old argument. As a sign of intellectual honesty, don't you think you should point this out? How about "While Kroeze is absolutely right about the impartiality of the EB, I have issues about some of his old sources."

In regards to the "million to one coincidence", I don't see the problem. If I have to quote something from a book (or more often, a journal article), the first thing I do is search for the relevant text online. What is the point of retyping something that is already available?

That's good. When I countered his "quotations" with my own sources, he simply ignored them. When I countered by unveiling the source of his quotes, he simply slinked away, not even bothering to defend himself. Seems to me you do more of his defending than he does, even when it becomes blatently hypocritical when you state that you never would use drivel from anti-semitic websites and then later defend Kroeze's use of information from anti-semitic websites.

He DID answer you. You were asked to actually CHECK the source, and point out any discrepancy or misrepresentation. Your counterargument was that the book you picked, "The Diaries of Theodore Herzl" (?), did not exist. Kroeze answered you that you had looked for the editors name, and not the author, and gave you a more detailed reference.

Consequently, the ball is squarely back in your corner. Read the book. Come back.

[CyberGnu]

Agathon, nah, that one only deals with the irrelevant pre-diaspora period...

Unless there is a new, updated version that I'm not aware of...

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu Your counterargument was that the book you picked, "The Diaries of Theodore Herzl" (?), did not exist.

No that was one counterargument of several I gave and it was the only one he bothered to reply to.

[CyberGnu]

Actually, that is the ONLY specific example you give in the entire thread. You also link to an older thread, where the same example is the only specific example. Apart from that, your entire argument is based on how you found the same quote on an anti-semitic website.

Since I'm assuming your silence in this issue means you've finally understod the flaw in that argument, you are left with only one option: Read the actual book or admit defeat.

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Actually, that is the ONLY specific example you give in the entire thread. You also link to an older thread, where the same example is the only specific example.

Actually, it was several quotes all originating that anti-Semitic website.

Since I'm assuming your silence in this issue means you've finally understod the flaw in that argument, you are left with only one option: Read the actual book or admit defeat.

Nonsense - I've more than adequoatly shown that Kroeze gets "sources" off the internet - and specifically anti-semetic websites that "spout drivel" as you yourself have stated - thats more than enough to discredit him to me and to many others - though of course, there will still be some people who will agree and defend him, even if it counters their own statements that they themselves would never use "drivel from anti-semitic websites".

I have no intention of wasting my time trying to disprove Kroeze because he - and you - don't address a logical argument by the other side if it complicates your case. He didn't bother to refute or address any of my refutation of his work with a variety of sources - so why should I expect a different response in the future?

[CyberGnu]

Actually, it was several quotes all originating that anti-Semitic website.

So? You picked ONE. You made a lot of how you were unable to find it, and how it thus didn;t exist. When Kroeze showed it to you, you didn't even look at it, but started whining about how he wouldn't meet your other points.

For heavens sake, why should he? If you just wave away the one he just gave you, why should he assume that you would care more for the others? He even said so, IIRC.

so again: read the book. If the quote in the book does not correspond to the quote Kroeze posted, let us know. Hell, if the context of the quote changes the preception of it would be cause enough to let us know. But until then, you really have no place to talk - you are just trying to salvage your own pride by snice comments.

Nonsense - I've more than adequoatly shown that Kroeze gets "sources" off the internet - and specifically anti-semetic websites that "spout drivel" as you yourself have stated - thats more than enough to discredit him to me and to many others - though of course, there will still be some people who will agree and defend him, even if it counters their own statements that they themselves would never use "drivel from anti-semitic websites".

And you still haven't understood why the presence of a quote on an anti-semitic website has no bearing on the original source?

Hmm, maybe I should use this to my advantage. Let's say I set up a vehemently anti-semtitic website, and I quote heavily from the Jerusalem Post. Would the JP thus be discredited in your eyes?

If so, excellent.

If not, why?

I have no intention of wasting my time trying to disprove Kroeze because he - and you - don't address a logical argument by the other side if it complicates your case. He didn't bother to refute or address any of my refutation of his work with a variety of sources - so why should I expect a different response in the future?

Well, obviously I am unable to find this refutation. Can you please post it again?

[gsmoove23]

Uh guys, bring it to another thread. I'd actually like to see what other books people would suggest or what people might want to say about the books that have already been suggested.

[CyberGnu]

Sorry, gsmoove. the israeli knee-jerk "anti-semite" slander makes me see red...

[gsmoove23]

np, I understand completely.

[molly bloom]

O Jerusalem!

Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre. The story of the struggle for the city of Jerusalem.Very readable, although veers towards the novelistic at times.

The Gun and the Olive Branch

David Hirst- examines the roots of violence in the Middle East.

The Road to Ramadan by Mohammed Heikal is also a fascinating read, offering an alternative view of the Yom Kippur War.

Only the first two deal specifically with Israeli history (in whole or part) but Mohammed Heikal's position in Sadat's government make his views on the Arab-Israeli conflict worth reading nonetheless.

[Drake Tungsten]

Sorry, gsmoove. the israeli knee-jerk "anti-semite" slander makes me see red...

I don't see why; your comments certainly warrant the label most of the time.