Recommend Ubergeek a book on Israeli history

[Ubergeek]

Specifically anything pertaining to the independence movement, the war of 1948, the runup to the war, and its immediate aftermath. Oh, and it has to be in English. Thanks!

[chequita guevara]

How Israel Was Won, by Baylis Thomas.
You could also try, Israel: Colonial Settler State by Maxime Rodinson.

[Az]

From the same bookshelf

"The Protocols of The Elders of Zion".

[chequita guevara]

I don't have that on my bookshelf.

[Az]

Seriously, Ubergeek. Be prepared to read books of gross falcifications and outright lies, from both sides.

[Az]

don't have that on my bookshelf.

I know a couple of stores that do. on the web.

[Ubergeek]

Hmm. Is there anything written from a scholarly, disinterested perspective?

[Alvaro]

You could do far worse than read "A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time" by Howard M. Sachar.

Those books chegitz offered you for instance


I'm shocked to see he forgot to add the story of the Liberty.

[Alvaro]

Originally posted by Azazel
Seriously, Ubergeek. Be prepared to read books of gross falcifications and outright lies, from both sides.

quite true, that.

[Ubergeek]

I was pretty sure I was going to have a hard time finding a decent book on my own, given all the propaganda that's out there on both sides. It's such a passionate issue that fidnign a writer who could recognize middle ground and stake it out was going to be a challenge.

[Az]

a good rule of thumb is to ignore the books here:

http://www.abbc.com/books/english.htm

You'll see a non/almost non-biased book, when you'll see it.

Problem is, you have to read it first, but then it's too late. Just don't trust the internet about it, it's a pile of manure.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Ubergeek,

About a year ago I posted this post, which still seems useful:

(as could be expected the Zionist lobby lost no time to dismiss ALL books mentioned as unreliable, biased, propaganda etc.; you will probably discover that this is their main debating strategy in every discussion about Palestine;
until this day they haven't succeeded recommending a better encyclopaedia than the Encyclopaedia Britannica, though I have asked several times;
nor have they ever explained how they search for academic research)

"Since I am just a simple historian -accustomed to give chapter and verse- and only able to form an opinion AFTER I have read a book, I am most grateful to you for sharing your insight with me about a professional study you will never read. I rather envy you for this ability.

Unfortunately your words have made me recognize that the intellectual integrity of the Western world is in danger. Only a day ago I would have trusted the 'Encyclopaedia Britannica', which states that in Israel
"The most significant economic divisions among Israeli Jews are between Sefardim and Ashkenazim, the former tending to be poorer and less educated than the latter, as well as underrepresented in higher office. Arabs are generally in the lower socioeconomic categories." (1998 edition)

So even the Britannica is contaminated with anti-Semitic, Muslim propaganda!
This same 1998 edition recommends the following studies about Israel/Palestine:

"Economic studies include Nadav Halevi and Ruth Klinov-Malul, The Economic Development of Israel (1968); and, for more recent events,
Yair Aharoni, The Israeli Economy (1991).
Administrative and political aspects are explored by Don Peretz, The Government and Politics of Israel, 2nd ed., updated (1983);
Edward Luttwak and Dan Horowitz, The Israeli Army, 1948-1973 (1983)
William Frankel, Israel observed (1980); and
Gregory S. Mahler, Israel: Government and Politics in a Maturing State (1990).
Dov Friedlander and Calvin Goldscheider, The Population of Israel (1979), is a highly useful work on population policy.
Raanan Weitz and Avshalom Rokach, Agriculture and Rural Development in Israel: Projection and Planning, trans. from Hebrew (1963),
and Agricultural Development: Planning and Implementation (1968), examine economic aspects.
Joseph S. Bentwich, Education in Israel (1965), is informative and comprehensive.
Two sociological studies summarize the great changes in Israeli life since independence:
Amir Ben-Porat, Divided We Stand: Class Structure in Israel from 1948 to the 1980s (1989); and
Eliezer Ben-Rafael and Stephen Sharot, Ethnicity, Religion, and Class in Israeli Society (1991).
Israeli culture is critically analyzed by Ella Shohat, Israeli Cinema: East/West and the Politics of Representation (1989).

Works describing the Zionist movement and the establishment and subsequent history of Israel include Nahum Sokolow, History of Zionism 1600-1918, 2 vol. (1919, reprinted 2 vol. in 1, 1969);
Leonard Stein, Zionism (1925);
Norman Bentwich, Palestine (1934, reissued 1946);
Albert M.Hyamson, Palestine Under the Mandate, 1920-1948 (1950, reprinted 1976);
and Barnet Litvinoff, To the house of Their Fathers: A History of Zionism (1965).
Valuable new interpretations are contained in Peter Y. Medding, The Founding of Israeli Democracy, 1948-1967 (1990); and
Laurence J. Silberstein, New Perspectives on Israeli History: The Early Years of the State (1991).

The material available on the Palestine question, Israel, and Arab-Israeli relations is vast, hardly any of it objective. Some of the few works that are objective include
Ian J. Bickerton and Carla L. Klausner, A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (1991);
Fred J. Khouri, The Arab-Israeli Dilemma, 3rd ed. (1985)
Conor Cruise O'Brien, The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism (1986);
Don Peretz, Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising (1990);
Bernard Reich and Gershon R. Kieval, Israel: Land of Tradition and Conflict, 2nd ed. (1993);
Howard M. Sachar, A History of Israel, 2 vol. (1979-87); and Charles D. Smith, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 2nd ed. (1992)."

Doubtless it will not escape your notice that several studies recommended by the Britannica were used -sometimes even quoted- as a source by Baylis Thomas.
I also discovered that this same 'moronic crap' is recommended as a compulsory introduction to courses on the Arab-Israeli conflict at some American universities -with the study by Charles D. Smith(1992).
So even the American 'Old South', of old a bulwark of liberty, equality and fraternity, is nowadays infiltrated by Palestinian and anti-Semitic propaganda! A most heinous spectre!

he actually believes this, based on several misconceptions created by interest groups, like the palestinians and anti-zionist orthodox jews.
I'm willing to do my best to relieve this text of factual discrepancies.

That shouldn't be too tough

Please do!
I also hope -since the established academic world can no longer be trusted- you are willing to recommend at least one reliable, recent study about the position of minorities in Israel. I am NOT lazy, so I promise to read it.
I understand that you can live with 'revealed knowledge', but my commonplace intellectual capacities will remain dependent on independent scholarly research."

Another way to search for reliable academic studies is to study the bibliographies of reference books for historians, like
R.R. Palmer/ J. Colton, A History of the Modern World, 1995, which contains an excellent bibliography.
When you need more advise about heuristics do not hesitate to ask me.

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

[Edan]

You'll have a hard (if not impossible) time trying to find completely neutral books, but...

If you just want the basics, you can try The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict. You can try The Arab-Israeli Wars by Herzog for a good book on the military aspect. The Israeli-Arab Reader is a collection of documents, speeches, etc, through the years which is worth taking a look at.

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Another way to search for reliable academic studies is to study the bibliographies of reference books for historians

Or as you've done in the past, study the bibliographies of anti-semitic websites and copy and paste from directly from them?

[CyberGnu]

Or as you've done in the past, study the bibliographies of anti-semitic websites and copy and paste from directly from them?

You mean like that bastion of anti-semitic filth, the Encyclopedia Brittanica?

http://search.eb.com/eb/article?query=&ct=&eu=109506&tocid=214214#214214.toc

Good example on a traditonal pro-israeli debating technique, though. When you can't deny the opponents arguments, call him an anti-semite. Hey, worked like a charm for 30 years, no reason it shouldn't work still, right?

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


You mean like that bastion of anti-semitic filth, the Encyclopedia Brittanica?
[/qb]

No, I mean like those caitations from marxists.de that we discussed in the last thread, that were direct copy & pastings from the website, with the exact same quotes and the same exact abbreviations, lack of pages, etc. that Kroeze has yet to account for - no doubt it's just a cosmic million to one coincidence, right?

Good example on a traditonal pro-israeli debating technique, though. When you can't deny the opponents arguments, call him an anti-semite.

That's good. When I countered his "quotations" with my own sources, he simply ignored them. When I countered by unveiling the source of his quotes, he simply slinked away, not even bothering to defend himself. Seems to me you do more of his defending than he does, even when it becomes blatently hypocritical when you state that you never would use drivel from anti-semitic websites and then later defend Kroeze's use of information from anti-semitic websites.