Women and Augusta National Golf Club

[Boris Godunov]

As I felt about the BSA issue, a private club can set whatever membership standards they want. However, the government should be able to deny such organizations use of public space for club purposes or any other benefits should it find the policies of the club objectionable.

Comparing this to a private corporation's hiring practice isn't equitable, as we're not talking about the club refusing to hire women, just setting a membership standard for dues-paying people. Big difference.

Of course, this still begs the question: Is it okay for a private entity which offers a service to discriminate in to whom it offers said service? Could a restaurant put up a sign saying "No blacks allowed" and be able to get away with it? That's thornier, as I don't think that is right nor should it be tolerated.

But that's exactly what places like Lucille Roberts (all-female gym) do by only admitting women. I fail to see a difference between such gyms and this golf club. For whatever reason, some women feel uncomfortable exercising around men, so they'd rather have a private, women-only gym. How is that any different from a bunch of men who, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable playing golf around women and choose to have a men-only club?

[flash9286]

crap i hoping Tiger would beat Nickleas' and Faldo's record.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming

Some people like to ignore logic and hide behind chants of "discrimination"... I guess they consider it easier than trying to argue the facts

You can talk. You've totally failed to respond to the argument and repeated your assertion that it is a private club so they can do what they want. I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong, but no sure fire refutation has been forthcoming.

I don't believe my rgument applies universally to any club, so I can't see how it's supposed to be a master refutation. And in response to your comments about the "facts" this is a moral issue. When I last looked moral utterances didn't directly report empirical facts (unless one is a moral realist, which hardly anyone is).

I also don't have to universalize my comments to all clubs - I might be using consequentialist reasoning, picking on the more high profile offenders for the future goal of lowering wrongful discrimination (although I don't have to to make the argument go through.

And similarly I'm not committed to preventing all male clubs or anything like that, just like I'm not committed to banning Jewish clubs or Catholic clubs or anything like that (if you read what I say carefully you will see why). But I can't see any specifically male need being catered to by AGN (that's what makes it different from your club where people play in jocks). More likely it is a hangover from the good old racist and sexist days of yore - that's the simplest explanation.

After all, at one famous club the sign "No Dogs or Women allowed on the course" was posted up around the course until a few years back.

And as for the government - I happen to think it should make life as difficult as possible for racists.

Ah it's three in the morning.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Of course, this still begs the question: Is it okay for a private entity which offers a service to discriminate in to whom it offers said service? Could a restaurant put up a sign saying "No blacks allowed" and be able to get away with it? That's thornier, as I don't think that is right nor should it be tolerated.

But that's exactly what places like Lucille Roberts (all-female gym) do by only admitting women. I fail to see a difference between such gyms and this golf club. For whatever reason, some women feel uncomfortable exercising around men, so they'd rather have a private, women-only gym. How is that any different from a bunch of men who, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable playing golf around women and choose to have a men-only club?

How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

[Berzerker]

Agathon -

You've totally failed to respond to the argument and repeated your assertion that it is a private club so they can do what they want.

You had an argument? All you've done is express disgust with what they're doing and called upon other people to stop it, that isn't an argument.

I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong, but no sure fire refutation has been forthcoming.

How does one offer a refutation involving the concept of private property to a communist? If you said the sun was the color purple and refused to accept that yellow is a color, our refutation of your claim wouldn't penetrate your skull either.

I don't believe my rgument applies universally to any club, so I can't see how it's supposed to be a master refutation.

Then your argument is inconsistent.

And in response to your comments about the "facts" this is a moral issue.

Sure is, but your "solution" to what you consider immoral is the use (or threat) of violence to get one group of people to associate with another group of people (with money forcibly taken from others). While the policy may be immoral, you far surpass it with your reaction.

When I last looked moral utterances didn't directly report empirical facts (unless one is a moral realist, which hardly anyone is).

Sounds like you consider your opinions more important than facts.

I can't see any specifically male need being catered to by AGN (that's what makes it different from your club where people play in jocks).

It's not up to you to decide what value needs to be placed on activities engaged in by others, that's up to them.

More likely it is a hangover from the good old racist and sexist days of yore - that's the simplest explanation.

How is that different from all Jewish or all Catholic clubs? It's still discrimination...and you discriminate too...

After all, at one famous club the sign "No Dogs or Women allowed on the course" was posted up around the course until a few years back.

Gee, I take it you've never played golf. There is a reason to ban dogs, and if you ever had to follow a 4-some of women, you'd understand why many men don't want them there too...

And as for the government - I happen to think it should make life as difficult as possible for racists.

And yet I imagine you'd oppose government making life difficult for communists. Don't persecute the commies, persecute the people communists don't like. Why are you oblivious to the hypocrisy in your argument?

How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

So it's sexist or pathetic for men to not want women around the course because they're slow as hell, but perfectly fine for women to exclude men when their presence creates a less enjoyable experience? Double standard...

[optimus2861]

Originally posted by Berzerker
How does one offer a refutation involving the concept of private property to a communist?

Best line I've read today.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

You can say it as much as you want, it's still a stupid argument. So some women take a stereotypical view of men (I've spent many years going to various co-ed gyms, and have never witnessed this behavior. And how do you know this is why the clubs are women-only? A coworker of mine goes to Lucille Roberts, and only does so because it's cheaper compared to other gyms in the area), and cite that stereotype of male behavior as making them uncomfortable, ergo all-female gyms are ok.

Well, fine. So some male golfers take a stereotypical view of women that they are a drag on male bonding, so want to go to an all-male golf course. I see no real difference in these rationales.

Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

Being sexist isn't a crime, and since legally we condone gender separation all the time (sports teams, restrooms, dormitories, etc.), there is a precendent for it. You may feel the golf club's reason isn't good enough, but who the hell are you to decide that?

If it's pathetic, so be it. Let people shun the club if they disapprove. Let people complain to their board about the policy. But I don't see why the government should be stepping in to interfere with a private club's membership rules when there are rather more important issues for it to deal with, including real examples of institutional sex discrimination.

Freedom of Association has been consistently upheld as a right by SCOTUS, and it is considered sacrosanct for private clubs and organizations (like the BSA). Telling the golf club whom they have to admit as members is not many steps removed from the government telling me who I have to hang out with on weekends.

And please, you can avoid responding with your stock "I'm so disappointed in these arguments" or "You are failing to argue" lines, as they're very obvious, cheap debating tricks.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

So women can engage in sexist behavior, but men cannot. No, that isn't a 'good' reason. Augusta's justificiations for keeping women out are just as valid as outdated and archaic stereotypes as 'all men are pigs'.

Well, fine. So some male golfers take a stereotypical view of women that they are a drag on male bonding, so want to go to an all-male golf course. I see no real difference in these rationales.

Such an easy counterargument to Agathon

[Ming]

I see Agathon hasn't added any real arguments at all.

He is still stating that Augusta/Golf Clubs should be held to different standards than any other private club. And the only reason he gives it that they are successful or that they just cater to men...

Discrimination sucks... but OK if he discriminates against a specific private club.

Still waiting for a real argument or a real justification of this opinon.

People have the right to associate with who they want. I don't want the government telling me who my friends should be.

And since eveybody else has pointed out how silly his argument is that women should be able to avoid men because they are pigs... but when men try to avoid women for whatever reasons... it's wrong... I don't really need to add anything else

[rah]

Men are pigs and Women are just wonderful to be around a couple of days every month. I see no difference.

I have no problems with PRIVATE CLUBS, but since Augusta does open it's doors to the most prestigious golf tournament every year (which sells tickets to get into) whether it's truely private is kind of a gray area in my opinion. So while I still believe that they should be able to control the membership they should be a bit more sensitive to the PC aspect. Heck, they let a token black in when they took abuse in the past. They already let women play the course, why not let in a token women or at least say they would consider it. That would be a small price to pay for the prestige that hosting the Masters entails.

And I think to generalize and say all women golfers suck and play slow is also wrong. The slowest groups I've ever played behind were all MEN golfers that were quite good players.

Just like men, some are fast and some are slow, some are good and some are bad. (but mostly bad )

RAH

[My Wife Hates CIV]

golf is pretty boring i think... so i'll just say this.

i would like to see a bunch of low par courses (nothing more the 3) and let men and women play against eachother. i bet many women could beat the men.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They already let women play the course, why not let in a token women or at least say they would consider it.

They actually had said they were considering it before Martha Burk came to town. Now they don't want to seem like they caved to her.

[rah]

THE not caving in to burk part is quite understood.
And in principle I agree with that.

It was funny reading that the protesters were outnumbered by the press.

[Wtiberon]

Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV
golf is pretty boring i think... so i'll just say this.

i would like to see a bunch of low par courses (nothing more the 3) and let men and women play against eachother. i bet many women could beat the men.

Unless you play avidly (like me) I can see how it would be boring.

I agree that if you take out the strength factor it would even the playing field some...but even on par three men would be able to use 9 and 8 irons while women would have to use between 6 and 4 irons which are far less accurate. So while some women would be able to beat some men I think the men would still largely out shoot the women.

[Sava]

Agathon... you are wrong. Give it up.