Women and Augusta National Golf Club

[Pyrodrew]

One can justify treating the sexes differently when there is a good reason to do so

None of the examples I gave seem like any better of a reason than this private club has. Yet, those groups are not protesting those. So perhaps we can at least agree those groups protesting are hypocrites.

The freedom of minorities not to be discriminated against.

Surely you're not saying its ok to discriminate against a majority, but not a minority.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
I expected better arguments from Apolyton.

Hmmm... the facts aren't good arguments?

You seem to have a problem with the laws that allow Private Clubs to pick and choose who can join.
Fine... That's your opinion.

But it's not the law. There is a reason why they are called "Private" Clubs. The government has NO RIGHT to force them to except people they don't want in their club.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming


Hmmm... the facts aren't good arguments?

You seem to have a problem with the laws that allow Private Clubs to pick and choose who can join.
Fine... That's your opinion.

But it's not the law. There is a reason why they are called "Private" Clubs. The government has NO RIGHT to force them to except people they don't want in their club.

This argument is about whether it's right or not.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

None of the examples I gave seem like any better of a reason than this private club has. Yet, those groups are not protesting those. So perhaps we can at least agree those groups protesting are hypocrites.

Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

Surely you're not saying its ok to discriminate against a majority, but not a minority.

No. It's ok to frustrate the ambitions of racists.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The "their club, their rules" argument does not hold water.

Why not? It is legal and seeing all the single sex organizations that people hold up, perfectly moral.

Would anyone care to suggest that violating (1) is more harmful? I think not.

(1) isn't simply the freedom of racists to construct racist institutions, it is freedom of association, a VERY important part of freedom of speech. I consider freedom of association and speech as MUCH more important than freedom not to be discriminated against.

In other words racist institutions should not be tolerated. There are of course pragmatic limitations to what can be done (as there are with any policy), but giving racist clubs and corporations a hard time seems feasible.

And yes - I think the KKK should be outlawed - it is basically a criminal gang set up with the express purpose of violating the civil rights of black people.

So what you are saying is that you don't give a damn about free speech? Or the only speech that can exist is one that approve?

[Wtiberon]

Originally posted by Agathon


Bizarre. The cases are hardly equivalent.

Men aren't allowed into a female locker room for a good reason - they would spend their time ogling the women. If there were to one locker room for both sexes there would have to be a change in the way that people behave. Surely you aren't suggesting that allowing female members at a golf club is the same as that? There is a good reason for allowing different treatment in one case, but none in the other.

Why wouldn't it be the same...Women don't want men inside a locker room because they want privacy from the opposite sex right? Try to think outside the box on this one...Men need a place to be away from wives or girlfriends. Where can they go nowadays? Don't they have a similiar right to privacy?

There are plenty of all women organizations that exclude men so why aren't these being harrassed?

I'm saddened that these feminist have gained so much power in society that they can Bully their ideals on other people.

Besides that particular golf club is basically a large corporation - and the rules are different for corporations.

It is not a corporation it is a private club and it behaves just as a private club should.

And in any case, no one has answered the question of why it's OK for them to ban women but not blacks or Jews.

I don't see the problem for a private group to discriminate on any basis for its membership. Don't get me wrong I'm not racist I don't feel that minorities are inferior but I do believe that people still have a right do organize as they wish. This includes the KKK, ACLU, or whoever as long as they do not participate in any illegal activities. America is based on the idea of freedom to organize even if we do not agree with it. That is something that self righteous people tend to forget about. They feel that if people do not think as they think or hold the morals that they hold that it is wrong.

Look the basic fact is that Augusta is a place where guys can get together shoot a round of golf, drink some beer, and spend time away from home. They don't hurt anybody and they are not part of an anti-women campaign...so lets just leave them alone.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

Their reason is that they want a place where only men can go and not have to deal with their wives or other women, etc. It's a gentlemen's club. Just like women have certain places they go, so as not to be bothered by the men in their lives (or men at all).

I see that as a valid reason.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
This argument is about whether it's right or not.

A good question... However, not everybody agrees with your opinion. As a matter of fact, many would think that you opinion is the wrong one, and just isn't right.

Again... the key term here is PRIVATE. Nothing is stopping women from playing Golf... nothing is stopping them from joining other Private Clubs. And nothing should stop Private Clubs from deciding who can join them. I don't look forward to the day that the Government can invade upon the rights of private clubs and dictate who their membership will be. Talk about an invasion of privacy by the government...

[Pyrodrew]

Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

If those other examples I gave have a valid reason, then state it. Otherwise, they are hypocrites.

There are plenty of all women organizations that exclude men so why aren't these being harrassed?

Exactly.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming

A good question... However, not everybody agrees with your opinion. As a matter of fact, many would think that you opinion is the wrong one, and just isn't right.

Well, they ought to come up with better arguments.

Again... the key term here is PRIVATE. Nothing is stopping women from playing Golf... nothing is stopping them from joining other Private Clubs. And nothing should stop Private Clubs from deciding who can join them. I don't look forward to the day that the Government can invade upon the rights of private clubs and dictate who their membership will be. Talk about an invasion of privacy by the government...

While "private" entails some rights it doesn't entail that a club or a corporation can just do what it likes. I'm not saying that the government should decide who their members can be, only that considerations of race or sex can't come into it unless there is a morally justifiable reason why.

If you want to argue that it's an invasion of privacy, fine. That boils down to the decision I wrote about before. Do the rights of racists to construct racist institutions matter more than the rights of people to be discriminated against? Privacy and liberty rights are too often a fig leaf for institutions that cause discrimination.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not saying that the government should decide who their members can be, only that considerations of race or sex can't come into it unless there is a morally justifiable reason why.

Um... you just made the government decide who their members should be.

--

Does this also mean that you want Black Students Unions and Womens Rape Discussion Groups to be integrated? Or only those that you find to be repugnant?

[Ming]

No... being a private club does NOT give them the right to what ever it likes. But it does give them THE RIGHT to decide their own membership. Maybe if ALL Private Golf Clubs didn't allow women, or blacks, or any other specific group, I would agree with you. But that's not the case. There are many Private Clubs that have been established for like people to enjoy each others company. There are Jewish Clubs, Catholic Clubs, Mens Clubs, Womens Clubs, Veterans Clubs... many different types of Golf Clubs. People have the right to associate in Private with whomever they want. And the Government has NO business telling them they can't.

If women want to play golf... they can. If they want to join a Club... they can. If they want to join Augusta, they can't. And frankly neither can a lot of other people.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well what a lot of fuss over a membership in some club... Obelix would say - Those women are crazy

[Ming]

You would think that the protesters would be more concerned about real injustices in the world.

This is nothing more than "somebody" screaming for media attention.

[Jac de Molay]

I think the club would've eventually included women among its ranks. The problem was it didn't like getting pushed around and coerced by wackos like Burk.

The Augusta Chairman, Hootie Johnson, has actually done a lot for women and minorities in his own business. It's just that him or the board members didn't want to change on someone else's terms, and has always said that changes will be implemented "on Augustas timetable only".