Women and Augusta National Golf Club

[Ming]

Using the logic of some... I guess the Government should have a say on who you invite to your own wedding...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming
No... being a private club does NOT give them the right to what ever it likes. But it does give them THE RIGHT to decide their own membership. Maybe if ALL Private Golf Clubs didn't allow women, or blacks, or any other specific group, I would agree with you. But that's not the case. There are many Private Clubs that have been established for like people to enjoy each others company. There are Jewish Clubs, Catholic Clubs, Mens Clubs, Womens Clubs, Veterans Clubs... many different types of Golf Clubs. People have the right to associate in Private with whomever they want. And the Government has NO business telling them they can't.

If women want to play golf... they can. If they want to join a Club... they can. If they want to join Augusta, they can't. And frankly neither can a lot of other people.

Well then, the argument is over whether or not they should have that right. I don't buy the argument that there are other golf clubs that people can join just as I don't buy the argument that there are other companies to work for. Each company or club that discriminates lowers the overall prospects for the people it discriminates against.

I have no reason to stop people from having Catholic clubs or Jewish clubs or whatever (I used the Catholic example in a previous post) as long as there's a good reason for doing so. Presumably a Jewish club is for Jews because that's the function of the club - there's an important cultural and religious difference between Jews and other people. The point of a golf club is supposed to be golf, although it is also for doing business. There is no specifically male need served by the Augusta Golf Club. There was no golfing or business need served by them not admitting blacks or hispanics for years - it was simple racism.

It doesn't matter that a lot of people can't join Augusta, it matters that some can't because they're women. And this fiction of Augusta being a "gents club" when it is in effect a corporation is getting tiresome.

As for the government - it has the business of promoting justice and preventing injustice. If this involves telling private clubs what they can and can't do, so be it. Again the rights of those who wish to discriminate come second to those who are discriminated against.

[DinoDoc]

How is Augusta a corporation? Since that is a statement of fact, it is seems that the best place to start getting some sense of order to this debate.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming
Using the logic of some... I guess the Government should have a say on who you invite to your own wedding...

Yeah right. We are talking about a golf club here. it so happens that there are a great variety of private institutions, not all of which share the same features. If the club was instituted by friends only for friends then you would have a case. But this is a golf club, for people who play golf. Most of the members are golfers or businessmen who use the club as a background for business (the woman in question is complaining about this as much as anything else). Since this is one of the world's best golf clubs it isn't as if women can easily join an equivalent club.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Does this also mean that you want Black Students Unions and Womens Rape Discussion Groups to be integrated? Or only those that you find to be repugnant?

You know, you will make a lousy lawyer. Read the rest of the thread - this point has already been addressed.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How is Augusta a corporation? Since that is a statement of fact, it is seems that the best place to start getting some sense of order to this debate.

It's worth millions and puts on the most famous golf tournament of all. It produces a widely consumed branded product. It owns copyrights. It isn't your average golf club.

[Agathon]

Perhaps it would be worth splitting the argument into 2 parts. One specifically about Augusta and the other about general discrimination and the state's role in suppressing it.

For the record I don't blame Hootie Johnson. He's a fine chap.

[Ming]

As far as your other argument on why Jewish Clubs are OK, but mens clubs aren't are just funny. Last time I checked, there are important differences between men and women... just as important as "culture" or religious factors that you seem to think are ok. Why shouldn't men be allowed to hang out with other guys in a private club if that's what they want to do.

And your tiresome comments that Augusta should be treated differently than other clubs because it is a corporation are just funny. All private clubs are corporations or companies. That's the way Private Clubs are structured.

And it is not Governments business to tell people who they have to associate with in private... talk about a real injustice.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Agathon
1) It's worth millions and puts on the most famous golf tournament of all. 2) It produces a widely consumed branded product. 3) It owns copyrights.

I fail to see how points one and three are relevent in any respect to your point. Could you expeand a bit on them? I also don't see how point 3 relates at all unless you meant it as a repeat of your first point.

[Ming]

I'm still trying to figure out why the fact that they host their own tournament makes any difference. It has nothing to do with their membership policies... The Masters is not a PGA event, and is not subject to their rules. As a private club, they are allowed to host tournaments. Many clubs do just that... The fact that theirs is successful doesn't change the fact that they are still just a PRIVATE golf club.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I fail to see how points one and three are relevent in any respect to your point. Could you expeand a bit on them? I also don't see how point 3 relates at all unless you meant it as a repeat of your first point.

Go to their website. Notice that it is copyrighted to "Augusta National Inc."

Inc. = incorporated.

Isn't that enough to prove its a corporation?

[Ming]

MOST PRIVATE CLUBS ARE CORPORATIONS...

your point?

[Jon Miller]

I think that the women should be

however, it is alright for Augusta to do what they want (And that is also right)

Jon Miller

[Ming]

The are many different types of "corporations". Because of legal reasons, most private clubs are corporations. Augusta National is a Not For Profit Corporation. While they do indeed take in tons of revenue, it is all allocated to the needs of the Club, and not to share holders as it would be for the type of corporation that you seem to keep alluding to.

There is a big difference between GM, IBM, Microsoft vs Private Golf Clubs and other Private organizations.

[Agathon]

Surely you can do better than this.

Originally posted by Ming
As far as your other argument on why Jewish Clubs are OK, but mens clubs aren't are just funny. Last time I checked, there are important differences between men and women... just as important as "culture" or religious factors that you seem to think are ok. Why shouldn't men be allowed to hang out with other guys in a private club if that's what they want to do.

That has already been answered. This is a golf club. It's for playing golf. Golf - a game that has a long history of bigotry. Soccer clubs don't discriminate in this way.

And your tiresome comments that Augusta should be treated differently than other clubs because it is a corporation are just funny. All private clubs are corporations or companies. That's the way Private Clubs are structured.

Augusta is not the same as other clubs. Most clubs don't sell a branded product for mass consumption.

And it is not Governments business to tell people who they have to associate with in private... talk about a real injustice.

Sidestep the argument again why don't you? I like this "private" stuff - it is virtually meaningless due to the equivocation implicit in "private". i.e. private meaning not owned by the state and private meaning pertaining to one's personal social life.

There's a difference between me and my friends getting together and creating a club where the point is "Ag and his friends have fun" and a local golf club where people get together to play golf. Most golf clubs do not admit people on the basis of friendship - they admit them on the basis that they can pay the fees and they aren't criminals or other ne'er do wells. Sporting clubs are private in the first sense but not really private in the second sense. Not letting in women or blacks isn't about who you hang out with - its about bigotry.