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What is the best tank?

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  • #61
    Comments to poll

    Germans more thought on its WWII history than about new tank design. Leopard I was entirely uneffective and awfull. Leopard II was improvement, but has much to do until T-80U. Armor about 1000 against standard amunition 1550 HEAT. IR less advanced than top notch Russian.

    T-80 with its engine is more moneverable than his counterparts. Aprox 850 standard amunition 1300 HEAT.

    T-90 with 1000 against standard 1580 HEAT could do better than leopard. less profile and bulkines. Both Russian tanks have kontakt-5 ERA. They couid fire higher variety of ammo from its 125 mm gun. From missiles to flechete. They could get Arena on top or other cheaper countermeasures. Russia have different ideology than is "standard US WW II ideology of selfprobeled AT vehicle". Their tanks are well all around versed and better suited for fight in difficult combined arms enviroment. Of course they were build with thought that they wouldn't have guaranted air superiority, and thats don't hurt either. With tonage less than 45 for T-80 and 46.8 for T-90 they have much less fear from bad bridges. BTW Russian military doesn't neccesary thing that bridges are first targets in campaign and they have lots of mobile ones. (you blowed bridge? And who cares.)

    T-95 is best alternative towerless concept, low profile 152 mm gun. Again missile... Soldiers would be much better protected than in former Russian tanks. I would however redesign lower part of this tank to be more compact and I would like view its engine in front,

    Merkava 4 has to high profile to be effective widely. Its another weaknes is 65 tones. Merkava closed more to M1A2 than would be nice. Big armor envelope outdated ERA and its looks like xxxx. Merkava have rather low penetration ammo. Merkava has high top armor, probably as attempt to protect itself against programmable amunitions and top atack antitank weapons.

    Leclerc is French highend armored vehicle. It features high armor and is better than L 2. It has high quietnes of componets, but it would need to be in few wars to remove some of its quirks. One disadvantage is its turbine. Tt has higer fuel consumption than it should. Everyone with experience with computer game developing and weapons building could design better controls than they did. I think they should do something with characterstic parameters of that gun. You know they talk about it as tank thad was build too soon. This gun doesn't look so effective.

    Chalenger 2 has high armor low anything else, other than steadines of crews.

    M1A2 is big with high fuel comsumtion and its armor isn't everywhere reasonable. One of its problem is its turbine. It has high IR characteristic that alows to nice lock for every antitank missile that could lock on IR. Depleted uranium isn't smart thing. I wouldn't like to be close when M1A2 would be hit by some antitank fire. And I would stay rather far away from it for nex 5 minutes. US did some enchancedradiation weapons for use aginst Russia, but if they would be as as efficient against Russian tanks, it would be dissaster for M1A2. Even simple neutron blast could do nasty things with M1A2 armor. Low armor of M1A2 is not nice and back armor is simply bad. It needs a lots of fuel to do anything and its 65 tons wouldn't alow ride in some cities.

    T-98 (chinese) Chinese tanks grows somewhat. Its armor is 800 against normal 1000 HEAT. Chinese had big Laser research and T-98 is likely to have its fruits. It looks like old T-80 however. Its electronic suit is better than early models T-80 electronice equipment.

    Black eagle has tower that looks like its wester counterparts, its tower is more advanced however. Export model?

    K1A1 is Korean copy of M1A2 with all its problems.

    Ariete and Oliphant. I have included them just for conterweight. Every person with brains and creative talent could design better than this two types. I know that without long research you'd have no chance to have perfect armor, but PLEASE THIS? Do better. I think there is hope.

    bananas are really dangerous. Some of them could be under your foot, barrel, or in ammo storage and eek.

    Sorry for grammar faults too much text for too short time.

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    • #62
      so basically, "they all suck, I could do better with a cookie jar, a piece of rope, and a toaster oven"?
      urgh.NSFW

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Azazel


        how many rounds per minute does the best autoloader shoot?


        Russian 130 mm twin 65/min
        I would like to see it mounted on vehicle with nice fire control, in action.


        Imagine group of M1A2. Then this gun would fire something with guidance on final part of trajectory.

        99...100. Any survivors? We can continue...

        BTW crosbows are better than muskets in AP.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Azazel
          so basically, "they all suck, I could do better with a cookie jar, a piece of rope, and a toaster oven"?
          Basically not. Company are scared to do something revolutionary. US gov doesn't know what to do with tankers that wouldn't be able learn new things. Russian gov don't have money. South africa doesn't have armor technology. Israel wont change its tank design until someone destroy a lot of Mercavas. China needs a lot to learn 5 years at least. Then they would chicken and build something traditional. They were very traditional lately, with exception of laser weapons. France have problems with marketing or style of presentation of leclerc. Germany is happy with what it has.

          Did I missed someone?

          Toaster oven is somewhat unusable for tank. I have graphic card repaired by wire. How did you guess I'm so skillful?
          Last edited by raghar; April 10, 2003, 20:20.

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          • #65
            Russian 130 mm twin 65/min
            I would like to see it mounted on vehicle with nice fire control, in action.

            65 per minute? totally unrealistic, me thinks, esp. since there is no point in such high fire rates, as there won't be enough time to adjust the turret to take a new target.


            Rate of fire 6-8 rounds/min

            admittedly this is a t-90 specs list, but is there a new autoloader?
            I don't think so.
            urgh.NSFW

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            • #66
              Israel wont change its tank design until someone destroy a lot of Mercavas.

              At the current rate of things, this won't happen for a long LONG time.
              urgh.NSFW

              Comment


              • #67
                I'm no expert, but the MIA1 or A2 seem to perform "adequately."

                In the current war, all the tanks in Baghdad have driven 300+ miles through dust and sandstorms and are still performing flawlessly. Their crews have yet to lose even one tank to a hostile tank.

                One can compare defensive armor, fire control systems, crew protection, but do tanks other than the M1 have the ability to perform flawlessly for long periods of time in such hostile conditions? If one recalls, the German King Tiger broke down so often as to be almost useless on the battlefield.

                However, some points raised here deserve to be discussed. Some M1's have been knocked out by AT weapons that struck the M1 exhausts. It does look like the M1 has an Achilles heal.

                Also, does simply having a bigger gun make the tank more effective? It seems to depend on the ammo. The US depleated-uranium rounds were effected against T72s even when fired by the Brandley's 25 mm guns.
                Last edited by Ned; April 10, 2003, 21:06.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                • #68
                  I think we need MtG to answer those qustions.

                  MichaelTheGreat , where are you?!!
                  urgh.NSFW

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Ned
                    In the current war, all the tanks in Baghdad have driven 300+ miles through dust and sandstorms and are still performing flawlessly. Their crews have yet to lose even one tank to a hostile tank.
                    I don't think that's quite true. The US hasn't announced any attrition numbers for mechanical breakdowns. It's not hard data, but I can remember a news article where it was reported that about 20-30% of the Abramses of some division (it was one without embedded journalists) were missing from their count two weeks into the war, and none had been reported lost to enemy fire. That implies that there may be significant reliability problems in sandstorms with the Abrams.
                    All Bradleys were counted as present.

                    As for not losing any tanks to hostile tanks, I think that tells more about the Iraqi tanks than the Abrams. Note that several were lost to AT guns, Kornets and RPGs. Most were mobility kills, but some got penetrations into the crew compartment as well.
                    "On this ship you'll refer to me as idiot, not you captain!"
                    - Lone Star

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                    • #70
                      M1A2
                      Merkava 4
                      Challenger 2
                      If I could vote, I would vote for the above.
                      No Challenger or M1A2 has been lost in a tank to tank battle. If that is also correct for the Merkava, than it to joins the ranks of the other two.
                      All of the others tanks have not see battle, therefore we cannot predict how they will fare, until they do see battle.
                      For Serb. The US had a 152 mm tank 30 years ago and did not like it. It was the M-60A2. It saw service in Vietnam.
                      There was a T-80 in the vote. In Gulf 1, the Marines with their M-60A3 met the Iraqi Republican Guard T-80s and destroyed all of them without a single loss.

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                      • #71
                        re Ned It was problem, because it looks like Iraqi doesn't have ammo able to penetrate M1A2 from front. I mean tank ammo. So yes they weren't able to hit M1A2 from behind as far as is publicly known.

                        Re Azazel
                        Russian 130 mm twin is from Russian's CGs. It has nice 90 tons, but looks interesting. It has 25 degree / sec rotation.


                        I think normal tank loader do 8-11 (15) /min. Imagine 152 mm without autoloader. ( US tanks are rummored to get 140 mm, so we can expect autoloader for them too)

                        This site could be interesting. http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html
                        Last edited by raghar; April 10, 2003, 21:45.

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                        • #72
                          The Mammoth tank. BTW, why don't tanks have more than one guns? Big guns, not MG's and such.
                          I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

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                          • #73
                            What's the point in having them?
                            urgh.NSFW

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BeBro
                              Well, Leos are in service in a number of other countries too...
                              Well, yeah. Finland has some Leo 2s soon too.
                              "Relax, pay your income tax!" - The Fast Show
                              "Once you discover white paint, you'll never wash your underwear again." - Conan O'Brien

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                              • #75
                                The bananaloader is more battle efficient than the autoloader.
                                If the banana misses it's target, it will boomerang back and be reloaded in no time.
                                My words are backed with hard coconuts.

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