Assassination? Decapitation!

[Eli]

Presumably you won't criticize the Palestinians next time they 'decapitate' the Israeli government.

Yes, I will. Israel didnt harm Palestinian goverment officials, while the Palestinians did.
I'm not sure whether in war-time political leaders are legitimate targets or not though. If they are, then it would've been ok.. Of course, since it's ok, Israel would've killed every Pal goverment member within hours.

But if they would've assasinated some military leader, I wouldnt have criticized them.
I wouldnt have liked it of course, but it's perfectly acceptable target.

But instead of seeing a problem with both acts, you're concerned with the hypocracy involved?

Since I dont see any problem with the acts, hypocracy is the only thing I can condemn.

[Pekka]

Eli, I'm willing to admit the possibility of IDF having far more better intel with this strike. I'm willing to believe, that they actually had solid intel and they knew 100% who they were striking.
But US is in war, it's little different.. I don't think they really know where Saddam is.. otherwise he'd be dead and it would be all over news. But it's different since the US is in active war against other nation..

Sure, this one could be condemned. But I see nothing wrong in that. Many people don't like assassinations, and if they try to be objective, they need to say something to this matter and rather than just saying 'nice one' they are more likely to condemn it, but not do anything about it. It would happen to any nation if they did that.

How do you know if the paper is actually presenting those hard facts? If it in fact was a normal family doing their normal things, and if no one is there to say otherwise, wouldn't you agree the best thing to do is to say the ones killed were what they expected, Hamas members? How would we know the difference? We couldn't.. I'm not saying they are lying here, I'm just saying it's always possible. But to be honest, I trust more that they were members of Hamas, than papers lying about this, or someone feeding papers with wrong infomartion that is. I was just talking about in general... how can we know what we're being told is truth..

[KrazyHorse]

Poor Israel. The US is always against it...

[Pekka]

Eli, but I'm with you there, that IDF tries to target 'more legit' targets, where as Palestinian terrorists are targetting mostly civilians. IF they would target IDF, or something simular, they'd be more legit and they could be called freedom fighters etc. But as long as they don't want to fight IDF but Israeli people in general, trying to kill as many as possible, they're nothing more than filthy terrorists that doesn't deserve the luxury of getting killed by bombs.

and that is why I'm more with Israel in their conflict. I don't care about the claims of history, lands etc until Palestine stops targetting civilians as their main objective. And I don't see why Israel should stop rolling those tanks every once in a while to their lands to show who the boss is, if bombings of civilians continues. When they start targetting IDF etc, then I'm willing to check my choosing of sides again. Sure, IDF makes overkills sometimes.. but if someone starts to bomb civilians like that.. don't expect nice treatment!

[Eli]

Originally posted by Pekka
Eli, I'm willing to admit the possibility of IDF having far more better intel with this strike. I'm willing to believe, that they actually had solid intel and they knew 100% who they were striking.
But US is in war, it's little different.. I don't think they really know where Saddam is.. otherwise he'd be dead and it would be all over news. But it's different since the US is in active war against other nation..

So doing it as part of war is ok while doing it to prevent some suicide bombing in a crowded restaurant is not?

Sure, this one could be condemned. But I see nothing wrong in that. Many people don't like assassinations, and if they try to be objective, they need to say something to this matter and rather than just saying 'nice one' they are more likely to condemn it, but not do anything about it. It would happen to any nation if they did that.

That's fine.
What I complain about is that one of those nations does the very same type of operation(with extremely more significant force) when it's in a similar situation.

Basically, take it as a "TOLD YOU!".

How do you know if the paper is actually presenting those hard facts? If it in fact was a normal family doing their normal things, and if no one is there to say otherwise, wouldn't you agree the best thing to do is to say the ones killed were what they expected, Hamas members? How would we know the difference? We couldn't.. I'm not saying they are lying here, I'm just saying it's always possible. But to be honest, I trust more that they were members of Hamas, than papers lying about this, or someone feeding papers with wrong infomartion that is. I was just talking about in general... how can we know what we're being told is truth..

I guess the Hamas statements and the thousands of demonstrators carrying the bodies and the pictures of the dead are also fake?

[Eli]

Originally posted by Pekka
Eli, but I'm with you there, that IDF tries to target 'more legit' targets, where as Palestinian terrorists are targetting mostly civilians. IF they would target IDF, or something simular, they'd be more legit and they could be called freedom fighters etc. But as long as they don't want to fight IDF but Israeli people in general, trying to kill as many as possible, they're nothing more than filthy terrorists that doesn't deserve the luxury of getting killed by bombs.

So what are we arguing about?

[Pekka]

Eli, I'm not condeming this attack. I'm not condeming others for condemning it. It's to be expected.

I still disagree in that the situation is same with this strike and war in Iraq.

I'm also not saying Israeli papers are not telling the truth in this particular case (or any other case), I was just thinking about truth and how it is hard to find. Yes, if Hamas says IDF took their members out.. then it must be true.

[Pekka]

I don't know what we're arguing about?

[Shi Huangdi]

Why don't you show a bit of gratitude for the USA? The USA has been a long time backer of your country, has given you great amount of aids, and has used its UNSC veto to protect you in the Security Council. Yet all you do here is ***** about the USA whenever it does something you don't like. Our Secretary of State will make whatever statement he needs in managing our diplomacy.

[Eli]

I still disagree in that the situation is same with this strike and war in Iraq.

It's even worse.

The US tries to accomplish some vague goal, to kill Saddam hoping that it will decrease Iraqi resistance.

Israel acts against people who will almost certainly either commit a terrorist attack or make a bomb for it or recruit a suicide bomber. There is no ambiguity. Either the man is dead, or civilians are dead a few weeks later.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Why don't you show a bit of gratitude for the USA? The USA has been a long time backer of your country, has given you great amount of aids, and has used its UNSC veto to protect you in the Security Council. Yet all you do here is ***** about the USA whenever it does something you don't like. Our Secretary of State will make whatever statement he needs in managing our diplomacy.

All of that doesnt make you less hypocrites on this issue.

[Pekka]

Eli, you know what is a big problem here.. it would help Israel a lot, if people in the rest of the world would realize and accept the fact, that Hamas is terrorist org.
Some people know it, but many people are not sure if they are.. When they thinkg about Hamas, they think about group who fights against Israel rather than think about terrorist org who only attacks Israel civilians.
So many people don't always associate with evil and bad when they hear Hamas. Other groups they realize being terrorists, but Hamas is not so clear to everyone.

If and when they realize it, it will be a lot easier for IDF to act in the eyes of Europe at least.
It is also a problem, that people don't expect Arafat to keep these groups from acting, since they have given up thinking 'well there's only so little he can do', and even if it's true, they fail to realize that then Arafat is not the man suitable to lead Palestine. Israel needs guarantees that the leader of Palestine is in control, not terrorists.
They see that those terrorist groups attacks Israel (never on IDF), and then Israel takes revenge, and because it's stronger, it somehow makes it same what Hamas and other are doing. Like they should apologize for having better weapons

[Pekka]

Eli, I still disagree, that the situation is the same, because it's harder to avoid overkills in active war. Killing the enemy is killing the enemy, but people know IDF is capable of clean hits, and expects it rather than overkills, where as US is known that when you start rolling, people who get in the way are in danger.

But I most definitely agree with you, that these terrorist group members are going to hurt innocent civilians for sure. So killing them is not a big moral problem. They're out to kill you, so you must kill them before they succeed, fair deal. Kill them where you see them, no reason to treat them any better.

[Cookie Monster]

Eli I understand the point you are trying to make however be very careful. It is your ally who is removing a big threat to Israel right now so watch it.

Yes I agree with you that you have a point about killing terrorist leaders. Israel shouldn't be criticised for this. Just don't insult the hand that feeds you.

[Pekka]

'you have fat fingers'