Damn the French they have gone TOO far!

[Worthingtons]

THe Counter claim obviously is that The Sun has done this. In a time where responsabiliy for almost anything is being disputed it makes one wonder what to believe, but to think a National newspaper employed thugs to do this risking just about the worst PR a newspaper could possibly get for a single story is simply crazy....

[gsmoove23]

Cyclotron, I wouldn't put too much stock in best selling book lists. After all Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" or something like that was #1 in America not that long ago, with my favorite chapter, Kill Whitey.

[KrazyHorse]

Rosbif is the only way to spell it.

"beef" is not a francophone way to spell that sound...

[Pekka]

Rothy, Sounds wild to me. If they would take that kind of risk, I bet they would make sure they get it right. Also French can spell wrong too, yes? Especially if it's a slang word. I woudln't count it out, but I'm not holding that as an option without proof.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Is there are reason we should care about the French left? After the best-selling book after 9-11 in France was about how we put on 9-11 ourselves, I lost any previous interest I had in catering to French interest.

I mean, I'm sure you're all nice people, but why should we care what your opinions of us are?

You don't have to. Ned was wondering how the French left could side with the US (whatever why), and I answered. However, it is always a good idea to listen to people you disagree with, even if it doesn't make you change your mind. It also helps to honestly look for the true reasons of your image's worsening abroad (this isn't exclusive to France).

About the scandal-rag on Sept. 11, it has less to do with antiamericanism than with the usual sells of a scandal-rag in France : France has no true political tabloids à la The Sun, and scnadal-books are how scandalmongers make money. The previous big success scandal-book (I think it had more success than the one on Sept. 11) told how Mitterrand knew he had cancer all along and lied to his people.
The whole journalistic domain rejected the scnadal-book on Sept. 11, and I don't think I've heard of any political party using it for propaganda. Actually, the book was a mere compilation of "info" found on the Internet which was then printed. The average Frenchman satisfied his lust of scandal through this media rather than a magazine or the Internet.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Rothy
THe Counter claim obviously is that The Sun has done this. In a time where responsabiliy for almost anything is being disputed it makes one wonder what to believe, but to think a National newspaper employed thugs to do this risking just about the worst PR a newspaper could possibly get for a single story is simply crazy....

I wouldn't put it past one of your British rags. But why does it have to be done by the sun? Some drunk brits deface the monument then tip off their favorite paper. No great stretch.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Frogger
Rosbif is the only way to spell it.

"beef" is not a francophone way to spell that sound...

Exactly my point...

Perhaps the grafittists where not actually French after all...

[Spiffor]

MOBIUS :
"Rosbif" strongly belongs to the oral language, and has no official spelling that I know of. The spelling "Rosbif" is the simplest written translation of the word, so I assume pretty much everybody would use this spelling if they had to write it.
However, both "ee" and "oo" are widely known in France, and there is nearly no French word using these doppled vowels, i.e everytime a Frenchman sees "ee" or "oo", he thinks about the English way to say it.

So, it is not impossible, far from it, French people have spelled "Rosbeef".

[Cyclotron]

It still makes me raise an eyebrow. I mean, while not indicitive of national policy, best seller lists do at least tell me what people are interested in reading...

However, it is always a good idea to listen to people you disagree with, even if it doesn't make you change your mind. It also helps to honestly look for the true reasons of your image's worsening abroad (this isn't exclusive to France).

Legitimate complaints are good to listen to, but I haven't seen many of those out of France. There is a distinct difference between specific complains and general, nebulous opposition.

[Worthingtons]

Mobius, I've addresed it already acknowledging the part it played was a large one, but by no means the only one. As i said, we took it heavy during the blitz - a campaign aimed at pressing us into surrender and because of our mentality it did the exact opposite. Some brit's would like to erase our 'bloody history', specially since in previous centuries we expanded more than any other empire has ever done (ok, if the Romans had the Technology then who knows.....) but the fact is that it exists - and it's something you'd surely struggle to compare with any French achievements.

[GePap]

You know, I remember all those brilliant Miliatry leaders of WW1, specially the brits. I mean, with all the massive casulties the french took, they could neer macth brti ingenuity: who else could lose 60,000 men in ONE DAY? My god, it is a record for the modern world! Good general Haig..briilliant chap really.

As I have said earlier, only one state with a land boundary with Germany survived invasion longer than 6 weeks: The Soviet union. All other states either were taken in that time or less, or avoided the issue by becoming allies of Germany. but I guess we can;t hold that against them, or call them cowards....

I understand that the French defeat was sudden, and the actions of the French goverment at the time were weak. I think if people single out the French, specially the US which had a wonderful 3000 miles to hide behind from the Germans, is because unlike all those other states in Europe, France was seen as an equal power to germany (With a bigger and in some way, if not all, better equiped military), which had not really been true since 1871, and thus the fact that the Germans won so quickly "must" be explained by soem french failing. I guess the story about how the german offensive was so well planned and executed doesn't play as well to an anglo-saxon audience.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
It still makes me raise an eyebrow. I mean, while not indicitive of national policy, best seller lists do at least tell me what people are interested in reading...

Too bad we don't know the hits, per country, of the people going to the sites claiming exactly the same absurd things. I don't excuse the people who bought this book, but the fact this book was a success in France and not anywhere else has much more to do with the structure of scandalmongering in France, rather than the typical French Antiamericanism.

And as per France's legitimate complaints : the message has now been garbled by a political consensus where everyone pushes for his agenda. But at the beginning (before the whole diplomatic barking, which was clearly driven by opportunism and egoism), France's opposition had to do with the strong belief the US was making a mistake, and was only helping worldwide antiamericanism to increase, thus playing in the hands of Bin Laden.

[Menlas]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I may live in a fantasy world, but I didn't see any significant increase of anti-Brit feeling. There is an old French tradition to mock the Brits or be annoyed by them every time they get in our way, but I didn't see any difference since the beginning of the Iraqi crisis I may live in a fantasy world though.

Menlas, did you see any difference ?

Not really. Of course we've had some fun about Blair being Bush's little dog, but that's not new after all

[Worthingtons]

gsmoove23 , Perhaps, but again if discovered the Sun would STILL receive awful condemnation for not reporting this to the police and instead printing the story in a misleading mannor. defacing the monuments of the dead is a VERY serious thing to do, and the PR that goes with trying to benefit from such acts is ghastly.

Then again Tony Blair somehow got away with trying to gain on the Queen Mother's death so who knows....

[GePap]

Originally posted by Rothy
Mobius, I've addresed it already acknowledging the part it played was a large one, but by no means the only one. As i said, we took it heavy during the blitz - a campaign aimed at pressing us into surrender and because of our mentality it did the exact opposite. Some brit's would like to erase our 'bloody history', specially since in previous centuries we expanded more than any other empire has ever done (ok, if the Romans had the Technology then who knows.....) but the fact is that it exists - and it's something you'd surely struggle to compare with any French achievements.

Hmm, wait, which is the UK's Austerlitz? When is the last time a british man defeated multiple European empires and then marched all the way to moscow? Yeah, the brits won a huge empire, from peoples with greatly deficient technology. Oh, and you forgot the Mongols, and the greatest Empire in the world, oh, and the spread of islam was just as quick.Oh, and lest not forget the huge Empire of Spain. What, were they superior peoples too?

Oh, and the people of Russia, hell, even the people of Germany, have you Brits beat in the "suffer from great enemy bombardments and attacks and keep fighting". And lest not forget the German siege of Paris in 1871, or is that going too far back?