The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile.

[Zulu Elephant]

Going back to the Dune thing

Paul Mua'dib vs Anakin Skywalker

?

[GeneralTacticus]

I'd say the only way Muad'dib could win would be if he used the Voice. PRescience is nothing when you have huge metal poles being hurled at you, or an invisible vice clampign aorund your throat. Besides that, combat has an infinite array of different possible outcomes, which makes predicitng anyhting during it very difficult indeed.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And yes I've seen the same ST. Let's talk about their genocidal plans, shall we? Infecting the Borg, infecting the Founders...gee, what a nice way to win a war! The Empire may be ruthless in conquest, but there's no instances of it using biological weapons to try to wipe out an entire species.

The Federation is, as far as I can tell, a junta wherein personal freedoms are at least as limited as they are under the Empire. So I don't think Federation colonists, once subjected to Imperial rule, would find there being much difference in their way of life.

Definitely, we haven't seen the same ST. First of all the "infection" projects you talk about were discarded for being too much radical, so don't make them guilty for something they didn't do. The difference is that they consider all the posibilities, because the Federation has no prejudices or complexes, unlike the nowadays European democracies. The Federation is a political structure to which any planet of political unit can join willingly, they are by no means a dictatorship or oligarchy. They have a very strong sense of the duty, which is very different from very limited freedom.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by South killer
I don't choose my favourite sci-fi based on ''which has the biggest ship'' but on ''which is more realistic and intelligent'', and that is Star Trek.

[Master Zen]

Ok, I've been bashing Star Trek too much so I must admit that both series are good, not so much as one being better than the other but rather each being better to a certain people's taste.

Trekkies seem to like being involved in a much more complex and deep universe.

Star Wars fans like myself simply like the "coolness" of it all, it is after all a "galaxy far far away" which we would have liked to live in, especially if it involved being a Han Solo-like smuggler

All said, I would just like to say the Star Wars movies are MUCH better and the characters too.

In all fairness, if there was ever a Star Wars series it would probably suck even more than episodes I and II

Picard and Spock are cool

BTW, Star Wars fans read the Timothy Zahn "secuels", they are old but they are good, real good.

[Sarxis]

They both pretty much suck these days. Its time for a new sci-fi epic.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar


We do, huh? What episode of B5 was that?(when we saw the vorlon planetkiller in action and/or effects)

Like I remember numbers..In the first or second episode in which the fact that the First ones havebegun blowing up planets we are told that those planets are no longer there..to me, that sounds like blown up.

[GePap]

The fact is that the storm troopers did lose to neolithic warriors. For Gods sake, as I said, can't the se troopers call in for indirect fire support?

You say the troopers had to go and take outt he threat the Ewoks were: what threat? you just told us thier armor is immune to ballistic weapons.That mans rocks. So at best, these teddy bears would be no more than small pests. Why couldn't tey just shoot inot the forest from the clearing to scare them away? Why the hell do all the strom troopers leave the one site they need to defend? Plus, if these guys are so elite, why do they all surrender once the generator is gone? could they not have at least kept fighting and desroyed a tiny band of rebels, just to screw them?

I am sorry, but those troopers were crap, and thier aim is horrific: hell, they certaionly would be unable to hit any earthforce marines, far less beat them.

[Boris Godunov]

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron on Endor was not to defend the shield generator, it was to capture the Rebels infiltrators. The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover. So, in the heat of a near-panic over a surprise attack by a numerically superior alien enemy that they really couldn't see and didn't know, they sought cover in the woods. The dense jungle, however, was utterly foreign terrain, and the Ewoks knew it like the back of their hand. Guerilla tactics are quite effective in such situations. It's easy to be the backseat stormtrooper, but put yourself in that situation with what they were likely to know and see what you do!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover.

According to Krammerman, stormtrooper armor is immune to ballistic weapons, so why would they care what the teddy bears wear firing?

[GePap]

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron

The emperor says Legion..were were the rest of them?

The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover.

Kramerman and yourself have both said Ewok weapons could not do anyting to stormtrooper armor: so what if they are out in the open? According to you and him, they are invulnerable to the furball's weapons and thus it would not have mattered at all.

So, in the heat of a near-panic over a surprise attack by a numerically superior alien enemy that they really couldn't see and didn't know, they sought cover in the woods

Crack elite troops don't panic when a bunch of vastly inferior forces with weapons that can't do anything to them (as you have stated) attack them, no matter the numbers.

The dense jungle, however, was utterly foreign terrain, and the Ewoks knew it like the back of their hand. Guerilla tactics are quite effective in such situations

Again, since ewok weapons were useless (as you and Kramerman have stated), all the Guerrila action in the world would not have mattered. These guys are ruthless no? then why follow into a jungle? don't they have sufficient firepower to simply obliterate the surrounding jungle, thus denying the furballs cover and creating kill zones? hell, even the US in vietnam didn;t care that much for the jungle.

Sorry Boris, no dice. Either the teddy bears's rocks could harm the troopers, or not. If so, then what good is thier armor against better weapons? If not, then the troopers acted totally unprofessionaly and nothing lke the Crack troops you and Kramerman and Lonestar say they are..another reason then for why they would lose.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by GePap

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron

The emperor says Legion..were were the rest of them?

We don't know what "legion" refers to in terms of absolute numbers. We see the total Imp forces, and it's clearly not a "legion" of our standards. It was several dozen men plus 4 AT-STs. Note that this was not the total Imp forces on Endor, as there was clearly an AT-AT that didn't take part in this fight. Since this was the secret rear entrance to the generator, it's reasonable to assume the bulk of the Imp forces were near the main entrance, which was many km away.

Kramerman and yourself have both said Ewok weapons could not do anyting to stormtrooper armor: so what if they are out in the open? According to you and him, they are invulnerable to the furball's weapons and thus it would not have mattered at all.

When did I say they were invulnerable? To answer, to rocks and arrows, yes, but no matter how good your armor is, when you get hit with large rocks that are in excess of 20 pounds, it will effect you. At any rate, it's not the lethality that matters, it's the mass confusion created by the Ewok surprise attack. Hundreds of rocks and arrows come in from all sides, the Rebels start shooting blasters, etc.

Also, remember that many of the Imps weren't stormtroopers, they were naval troopers who didn't have the armor and were vulnerable.

Crack elite troops don't panic when a bunch of vastly inferior forces with weapons that can't do anything to them (as you have stated) attack them, no matter the numbers.

You repeat three times I stated it, but I never did. And when the enemy outnumbers you overwhelmingly and are hitting you from all sides from a dense jungle so you can't really see them, even elite troops can panic momentarily. Ask the IDF when they are hit with Palestinian stone-throwing kids.

Again, since ewok weapons were useless (as you and Kramerman have stated), all the Guerrila action in the world would not have mattered.

Fourth time you say it...I didn't say it.

These guys are ruthless no? then why follow into a jungle? don't they have sufficient firepower to simply obliterate the surrounding jungle, thus denying the furballs cover and creating kill zones? hell, even the US in vietnam didn;t care that much for the jungle.

The Imps sought cover in the jungle. They were standing in the middle of an open clearing. What, you'd think it was smart to stand there, encircled, and just blindly fire into the woods when the enemy is surrounding you? Keep in mind, they didn't fully know what the capabilities of the Ewoks were to inflict damage on them. They'd have been stupid to stand in the clearing, especially since the rebels were firing on them with blasters, too.

As for aim...as I said a while ago, we see a stormtrooper peg Leia with an off-the-hip shot from 45-60 feet away. Let's see you do that.

[GePap]

4 AT-STs.

To answer, to rocks and arrows, yes, but no matter how good your armor is, when you get hit with large rocks that are in excess of 20 pounds, it will effect you

First of all, the 4 AT-ST's would have been invulnerable to anything the furballs threw at them in the clearing, and seeing how 3 of them were taken out in the forest (May i add by incredibly stupid ways), any sensible commander fo these assets would have stayed in the clearing and provided fire support for the troopers.

Second: You did say elswere that the troopers were immune to the weapons of the Ewoks before, and again( see above) and the only time these guys were hit by 20lb rocks was once they went into the forest.

Also, for the guys wihout armor: why would they, of all people, follow the furballs into the forest? Why not retreat into the inpenetrable bunker behind them? Also, don't stormtroopers have those cute plastic bands we use today to secure prisoners? why are their hands free?

And you still have not addressed the question of kill zones: why on earth would they need to go deep into the forest, when all they have to do is blast a fire zone aorund them? And where is their indirect fire support? How big is this damned compund? I don;t care if that is the rear door: what, is the front door so far away the bigger units in front can't come and lend help? Also, the rebels did not even know about the rear door when they landed: were they goign to take on that AT-AT single handedly? Some confidence, though given the general aim of storm troopers, not wholly missplaced.

Drake:

about the Duneverse, the problem is this: as afr as I know, FTL travel in it depends on spice, which coems only from the otherwise worthless world of Arrakis. what then stops the empire with its DS, or the Vorlons with their planet killers from blowing up Arrakis and destroying all the spice, which they don't need at all (and even if in dune they can see the future, that won't help them take out a DS or a Vorlon planet killer). And that is the nice end: if it is the Shadow planet killer

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by OliverFA


Definitely, we haven't seen the same ST. First of all the "infection" projects you talk about were discarded for being too much radical, so don't make them guilty for something they didn't do. The difference is that they consider all the posibilities, because the Federation has no prejudices or complexes, unlike the nowadays European democracies. The Federation is a political structure to which any planet of political unit can join willingly, they are by no means a dictatorship or oligarchy. They have a very strong sense of the duty, which is very different from very limited freedom.

In Deep Space Nine "area 39" (or whatever) did in fact use a type of bio-warfare on the Dominion, slowly killing off the Founders. The plan would have worked if Basheer hadn't found out about it. Odo then volunteered to take the cure to the great link.

[Drake Tungsten]

Drake:

about the Duneverse, the problem is this: as afr as I know, FTL travel in it depends on spice, which coems only from the otherwise worthless world of Arrakis. what then stops the empire with its DS, or the Vorlons with their planet killers from blowing up Arrakis and destroying all the spice, which they don't need at all (and even if in dune they can see the future, that won't help them take out a DS or a Vorlon planet killer). And that is the nice end: if it is the Shadow planet killer

In the later Dune books, technology becomes available that allows melange to be synthesized. There goes your spice supply problem...