Live firefight on CNN

[MichaeltheGreat]

A battery is six guns, rapid firing at 20 seconds once dialed in, so to get the same blast effect in total, you'd need 2-3 minutes with all six guns firing.

The difference is that the overpressure and blast energy of the 2000 pounder is concentrated in a fraction of a second, and the mass of the explosive and air gives you a higher total overpressure and a shockwave that's much stronger. Sound effects will be 20-30 dBa higher at a minimum, etc.

WW2 is an invalid comparison - the relative expense, tactical control and ground coordination, and time to target of close air support was much higher. The USMC also relies heavily on close in air support - that's why they have their own independent aviation branch, whereas the US Army is limited to rotary aviation, and has to call the Air Force for it's close support.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Ahh, thanks for that Asher. I am corrected now. NOT.

Apply that massive brain power from that arts degree and maybe it'll come to you that it simply doesn't make sense to set this up for show. It was hardly an awesome display of power, it took them forever to do it, and it showed a dozen Iraqi troops can delay a much larger US military machine.

[Asher]

If I were setting something up for show, I'd perhaps blow up, say, 1000 Iraqi tanks with 25 US tanks in 5 minutes, infront of cameras.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kramerman


hmm perhaps i caught the tail end of this discussion out of context, but I would have to agree with NYE. Arty can be brutally effective, if used well. And it is devestating to pretty much anything that isn't dug in or hardened, ie buildings (non-fortified), vehicles (non cobholm or explosive reactive armor ), people out in the open, or in vehicles or buildings...

Arty against AFV's or IFV's is also real effective - the roof armor is nothing, and mobility kills are mission kills. The simple answer is that time on target may have been less for air than for arty. Even though the arty knows it's own position via GPS, the position of the enemy-held building would have to be estimated, unless an FO team with GPS and a laser designator was attached to that Marine company. Even with GPS on firer and target, accuracy with 155's is on the order of 50 meters, since wind and air density conditions aren't known. That can be improved with corrections given in the course of the fire mission, but if you've got air available, why **** with all of that?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
A battery is six guns, rapid firing at 20 seconds once dialed in, so to get the same blast effect in total, you'd need 2-3 minutes with all six guns firing.

The difference is that the overpressure and blast energy of the 2000 pounder is concentrated in a fraction of a second, and the mass of the explosive and air gives you a higher total overpressure and a shockwave that's much stronger. Sound effects will be 20-30 dBa higher at a minimum, etc.

WW2 is an invalid comparison - the relative expense, tactical control and ground coordination, and time to target of close air support was much higher. The USMC also relies heavily on close in air support - that's why they have their own independent aviation branch, whereas the US Army is limited to rotary aviation, and has to call the Air Force for it's close support.

Assuming the guys in the air hit the right target.

And, no, it's not invalid. The same problems apply today that applied then. It is awefully difficult to tell wth is going on down there, from the air.

Or maybe 4 more PPCLI troopers would be alive today...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Asher
If I were setting something up for show, I'd perhaps blow up, say, 1000 Iraqi tanks with 25 US tanks in 5 minutes, infront of cameras.

73 Easting or 24th ID reams Tawakalna would do much better for that.

Actually, this is nice for show, but not in the regular sense. These guys took there time, no major stress, no question as to who was in charge or what the result was going to be - you can come out now, or we can ruin your day and then you can come out, but you're going to die or surrender, and we'll move on without casualties or significant delay. Your choice.

[Asher]

Or maybe 4 more PPCLI troopers would be alive today...

Ah, so that's what this is about.

I'm gonna go to bed now. But for future reference, I'm the kind of guy who won SMAC games by building only planet-busters and wiping everyone out but me on the map in 1-2 turns if possible.

And in Civ I attack and raze cities as I go.

[Drake Tungsten]

PPCLI

Prince Philip's Canadian Light Infantry?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Assuming the guys in the air hit the right target.

And, no, it's not invalid. The same problems apply today that applied then. It is awefully difficult to tell wth is going on down there, from the air.

Or maybe 4 more PPCLI troopers would be alive today...

In broad daylight, it's pretty hard to miss a multistory building.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

Apply that massive brain power from that arts degree and maybe it'll come to you that it simply doesn't make sense to set this up for show. It was hardly an awesome display of power, it took them forever to do it, and it showed a dozen Iraqi troops can delay a much larger US military machine.

Maybe that massive compusci brain power will make it come to you that propaganda comes as you get it.

And it seldom makes any sense to people later.

And who the hell leads into battle in a Bronco?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Prince Philip's Canadian Light Infantry?

Very close. Patricia instead of Philips.

They're based in Edmonton, Alberta -- it's who was bombed by US pilots last year.

[Drake Tungsten]

Damn. I knew the PP was going to get me...

it's who was bombed by US pilots last year.

I figured as much.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Maybe that massive compusci brain power will make it come to you that propaganda comes as you get it.

But it wouldn't make sense. It's not propaganda because it hasn't SAID anything, it was just something cool to watch for the first time on TV.

I think you need to snap back to the real world.

And who the hell leads into battle in a Bronco?

They weren't heading into battle, it was a convoy of vehicles in an area that was assumed to be secure. Not only any area, a port area that needs to be coordinated (maybe by people in SUVs...)

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

PPCLI

Prince Philip's Canadian Light Infantry?

Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry.

The oldest, most blooded, and most gloried regiment in the new world.

OK, I may be exagerating, but they are the PATs.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


In broad daylight, it's pretty hard to miss a multistory building.

Asssuming they have the right multistory building.