Live firefight on CNN

[Kramerman]

it really is incredible. anyone see the press conference with teh Iraqi information minister?

[Dis]

I saw parts of it earlier. You missed when we were talking about it. the same ole anti-U.S. stuff.

[Drake Tungsten]

Thanks for the info, MtG.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Far more shells for the artty than bombs for the fly boys though.

And btw, I think that most victims of shelling would dispute you.

Airplanes go quickly. The shells never stop if you are in the way.

In a building, the blast effects of the 155's are limited. A 2000 pounder will do two things: Let the bastards know we're not short of ammo and resources, so we can hit them with whatever we want; and the blast inside the building will do a lot more internal structural damage, plus stun anyone inside, so that their motivation to stay in that building while dug in are a lot less.

If you're caught in the open, you'll be screwed silly by arty, but dug in forces have amazing survival rates, although it still leaves an impression. If you're in a fighting hole and arty comes by, you're generally safe unless it's practically on top of you. With heavy bombs, the earthshake is enough to lift you out of the hole, where the shrapnel and debris can work you pretty well.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, actually Drake, I have real doubts about what we saw tonight.

How so? Looked like standard desert infantry tactics to me.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


In a building, the blast effects of the 155's are limited. A 2000 pounder will do two things: Let the bastards know we're not short of ammo and resources, so we can hit them with whatever we want; and the blast inside the building will do a lot more internal structural damage, plus stun anyone inside, so that their motivation to stay in that building while dug in are a lot less.

If you're caught in the open, you'll be screwed silly by arty, but dug in forces have amazing survival rates, although it still leaves an impression. If you're in a fighting hole and arty comes by, you're generally safe unless it's practically on top of you. With heavy bombs, the earthshake is enough to lift you out of the hole, where the shrapnel and debris can work you pretty well.

What would 1 2K bomb do that 10 or 20 155 shells did not?

Look to any WWII battle site to see what arty can do. Stalingrad was not reduced to rubble by Stukas. It was guns.

How much of an end to Vietnam was brought by blowing the hell out of HCM city from the air?

[Asher]

I'm pretty sure if they had precision 2000lbs bounds in WWII they'd use them over arty any day when possible.

We may as well talk about how useful horses are and refer to the mongols.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


How so? Looked like standard desert infantry tactics to me.

Did not to me. Starting with the SUV out in front of the Humvees.

Continuing with soldiers lying down on hard deck in the open through the course of the 'production'.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Did not to me. Starting with the SUV out in front of the Humvees.

Continuing with soldiers lying down on hard deck in the open through the course of the 'production'.

Why wouldn't you have an SUV?

I don't understand -- the Hummers aren't any more armoured than an SUV is.

Non-combat troops may well drive in SUVs, big deal. You do realize a hummer is an SUV anyway, right...

This is a port town -- there's lots of civilians around, either as press or as humanitarian aide coordinators. The convoy was led by an SUV, probably directing where the convoys were to go.

If you'll remember, the area was thought to be "secure"...

[Dis]

but it looks cooler

and can go into deep water

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher


Why wouldn't you have an SUV?

I don't understand -- the Hummers aren't any more armoured than an SUV is.

Non-combat troops may well drive in SUVs, big deal. You do realize a hummer is an SUV anyway, right...

Ahh, thanks for that Asher. I am corrected now. NOT.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm pretty sure if they had precision 2000lbs bounds in WWII they'd use them over arty any day when possible.

We may as well talk about how useful horses are and refer to the mongols.

hmm perhaps i caught the tail end of this discussion out of context, but I would have to agree with NYE. Arty can be brutally effective, if used well. And it is devestating to pretty much anything that isn't dug in or hardened, ie buildings (non-fortified), vehicles (non cobholm or explosive reactive armor ), people out in the open, or in vehicles or buildings...

[Asher]

I think it's rather sad that someone could think this is propaganda and organized.

The US set up remote guns in a building to simulate enemy troops firing on them (while at the same time, actually firing on their own troops!), only to blow it all up. And what would it accomplish?

Is it some huge victory that it took over 4 hours for so much incredible power to take out a dozen or so inadequately equipped Iraqi soldiers?

Or perhaps that the US army is capable of taking out a dozen inadquately equipped Iraqi soldiers?

I ask you to think about this hard for a while before you continue to embarass yourself.

[Dis]

I'm just trying to save money but that's not the best way to wage a war obviously. That's why I'm no general.

But I just couldn't see the threat such a small group had. I still think arty could have taken care of them.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kramerman
hmm perhaps i caught the tail end of this discussion out of context, but I would have to agree with NYE. Arty can be brutally effective, if used well. And it is devestating to pretty much anything that isn't dug in or hardened, ie buildings (non-fortified), vehicles (non cobholm or explosive reactive armor ), people out in the open, or in vehicles or buildings...

A 45lbs warhead in arty shells are considerably less effective (psychologically and physically) than a 2000lbs bomb. An arty shell is also less accurate (although that apparently didn't really matter here).

Let's be honest: There's no shortage of precision bombs. Rather than wasting even more time continually peppering a building with lots of small weak warheads, and hoping you cover enough of the building fast enough to be effective -- it'd be better to drop one big mofo on the thing and flush it out in one bomb rather than 20+ shells.