Did we score a victory?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by PLATO1003


Boris, he pays $25000 to families of the homicide bombers.

That is claimed by Israel, but it has never been proven, IIRC.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Sorry, I am not a three year old kid who hasn't gone around the block at least once.

Lots of other countries have CBN weapons, GWB has made nothing about them. No threatening noises, no condemnation, not even comments.

So what makes Iraq having CBN weapons such a big deal?

17 UNSC resolutions. Two wars of agression. A cease fire agreement where he agreed to destroy them as a condition of ending hostilities.

Which of the other countries you are talking about fit this bill?

Also, I was not trying to insult you with my comment. It seemed that you were negating its importance simply due to the fact that we continually have to remind some that the French are ignoring the realities for the sake of their own power.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


That is claimed by Israel, but it has never been proven, IIRC.

Has not Sadam made this offer publically?

[yavoon]

north korea is insane. its not like any other place really. they don't neccesarily obey normal rules of diplomacy.

they are ruled completely unilaterally by what amounts to someone w/ the mentality of a child. he will actually not tell diplomats(anecdote from a US source) whether he will meet them or not. as he prefers to make a grand and dramatic entrance w/ music.

[PLATO]

Boris, just checked on no fly zones. You are correct. My apologies.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by PLATO1003


Has not Sadam made this offer publically?

I stand corrected, he has. Which is not entirely surprising, given his caliber. While less relevant, the dispute in intelligence seems to be over whether or not Iraq has actually paid anyone, or if it was an empty boast.

In any event, that is not adequate grounds for the U.S. to be marching to war against Iraq. We are not, after all, marching into Palestine to take out Hamas, nor into Saudi Arabia to take out the Sauds.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Isn't this bit all worn out and torn?

The truth is never worn out UR even if you try hard to hide it...

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I stand corrected, he has. Which is not entirely surprising, given his caliber. While less relevant, the dispute in intelligence seems to be over whether or not Iraq has actually paid anyone, or if it was an empty boast.

In any event, that is not adequate grounds for the U.S. to be marching to war against Iraq. We are not, after all, marching into Palestine to take out Hamas, nor into Saudi Arabia to take out the Sauds.

Once again I'll agree that this single reason is not enough. It is this and all the other reasons that make it necessary.

[yavoon]

its totally unjust to bring up the argument that "because we can't simultaneously solve all the worlds problems that we should not solve any."

if u honestly consider this a problem and then follow the logic that cuz we can't apply this over a universal arena therefore we shouldn't bother to apply it ever.

thats really an idea born of civic laws. not of international policy.

not only is it a poor use of logic, but it also observationally untrue w/ a literal ton of events in history.

btw this post was to boris' post.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by yavoon
its totally unjust to bring up the argument that "because we can't simultaneously solve all the worlds problems that we should not solve any."

if u honestly consider this a problem and then follow the logic that cuz we can't apply this over a universal arena therefore we shouldn't bother to apply it ever.

thats really an idea born of civic laws. not of international policy.

not only is it a poor use of logic, but it also observationally untrue w/ a literal ton of events in history.

btw this post was to boris' post.

You're misinterpreting why such things are brought up. The reason I mentioned the connections of Saudi Arabia to some of the things that have been cited by people as casi belli is because not only are we not doing anything about it, but we're de facto encouraging it by being their allies and friends, because it is convenient for us to do so while we rattle our sabre against Iraq. That is blatant hypocrisy, and it nullifies the moral righteousness of a our cause.

If we want to be taken seriously in finding a regime morally repugnant, we can't hop into bed with regimes that are equally or even more morally repugnant than the one we want to fight.

You brought up the moral justification argument first, so don't whine when it is shown to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by PLATO1003


Once again I'll agree that this single reason is not enough. It is this and all the other reasons that make it necessary.

Without the crucial one of necessary defense, the others don't matter to me one bit. And I believe the ultimate ramifications of the war will be far more detrimental than maintaining the status quo and applying dimplomatic pressure.

After all, our warmongering has already driven North Korea and Iran to seriously intensify their nuclear efforts out of a sense of self-preservation. When a stupid American president who controls the largest army in the world lumps you in with Iraq in an "Axis of Evil," and then proceeds to make war on Iraq, then the other members of the axis would be foolish not to do whatever they think they could to defend themselves from future U.S. attack.

[Dinner]

Boris: Claiming Israelis are the only ones who know about Saddam giving $25k to terrorist "martyrs is just plain wrong. You are totally misinformed. That was announced on Iraqi State radio and is a clear support of terrorist activities. That said the Saudi government also supports terror by giving government pensions to the families of terrorists who kill Jews.

Also the Iraqi attempt to assassinate Bush Sr. is very well documented. You are the first person I have ever seen attempt to refute it and I believe you are a good man who has failed to understand the difference between the .net history and real world history. The internet is filled with loons spouting off about how the holocaust never happened, how Joe Stalin really didn't kill 25 million people ( :roleeyes: ), and how Saddam never tried to assassinate any one.

Real academic history books and real journalism from reputable publications (not fringe garbage) is what we all should be reading.

[yavoon]

I dont think we are finding it morally repugnant. nemore than neone in the world can find anything morally repugnant.(considering what the world puts up with).

in the end its true we have both. interests and morals. but almost as importantly so do other ppl, which is why in politics u have to fight for what u get and the end result may look inconsistent. but its only inconsistent by compromise.

are we gna invade a iraq out of some spontaneous outrage of their morality? no. but like I mentioned earlier, we as a country and hopefully a world have been awakened by the abillity of places who harbor this hatred and their ability to inflict damage on us.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Boris: Claiming Israelis are the only ones who know about Saddam giving $25k to terrorist "martyrs is just plain wrong. You are totally misinformed. That was announced on Iraqi State radio and is a clear support of terrorist activities. That said the Saudi government also supports terror by giving government pensions to the families of terrorists who kill Jews.

I conceded I was wrong on the Iraq point, so you can save the indignation.

Also the Iraqi attempt to assassinate Bush Sr. is very well documented. You are the first person I have ever seen attempt to refute it and I believe you are a good man who has failed to understand the difference between the .net history and real world history. The internet is filled with loons spouting off about how the holocaust never happened, how Joe Stalin really didn't kill 25 million people ( :roleeyes: ), and how Saddam never tried to assassinate any one.

So you prove it. Here is a good source to start:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02

academic history books and real journalism from reputable publications (not fringe garbage) is what we all should be reading.

So, does the above count as fringe garbage?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
While I'd love to see Blair go down in flames, perhaps keeping him off-balance is a better strategy for now. As long as the French veto can cause Blair's government to fall, the US can't unilaterally invade Iraq, unless they're willing to toss their allies to the dogs, which will really hurt America's foreign relations.

Well, since there likely won't ever be a vote... Check. Your move.