Bus exploded in Haifa

[FrustratedPoet]

Glad to hear that Azazel.

[Az]

mean X-post.

[MOBIUS]

First I'd like to offer my sincere condolences to the Israel state for its latest civilian casualties, but these unfortunately will continue until there is a genuine will for it to stop in the minds of the leaders and extremists on BOTH sides...

It is good to note that Israel seems to be finally allowing marriages involving non Jews, at least that is a step in the right direction for the rights of Non Jews, or Jews wanting to marry non Jews...

Originally posted by Oerdin
The IDF doesn't support the killing of innocent people and it prosocutes anyone who commits such acts. The Palestinians almost universaly support acts of terror designed to kill women and children instead of military targets.

Yeah Oerdin, well Israel has killed many more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis - more importantly Israel has killed a higher proportion of children than the Palestinians. Interesting considering the Palestinians are supposed to be targeting children when the IDF are not...? But then your [insert relevant word], precludes you from considering that your statement may be a little unreasonable...

Yasser Arafat is complicit in these attacks. He knows Palestinian groups are planning them but does nothing to stop them plus he provides them with moral cover by constinently speaking out on their behalf and providing them with moral cover. The Palestinian cause will never be seen as legitiment by the international community until the Palestinian leadership ceases to support terrorism.

Unfortunately, people like Arafat have been involved with terrorism for 40 years and they are not going to give up their "pet project" now. Arafat is a war criminal who should be executed for his crimes.

You know, change 'Yasser Arafat' and 'terrorism' to Ariel Sharon and settlements and you'd still be talking sense...

This whole sh*t (Palestine, Iraq you name it!) really pisses me off! Most everyone in the entire world only wants to live in peace, but the people in power are the ones that mess this up!

When we reap these policies it is the innocent civilian that gets killed - Blair has made London a prime target for a major terrorist attack, but is he going to be here when we go to war with Iraq - is he f*ck, he'll be safe in a bunker somewhere!

Same with Bush and the same with Sharon - it's us poor saps the civilians that get it in the neck every time and most of the time we don't even agree with their actions...

Maybe things'll start changing after the peace protests we've seen, but before then there'll be an awful lot more Haifa Buses and 9 months pregnant women crushed to death in their homes.

[Arrian]

Blah.

[Dinner]

Where is Taurus?

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Where is Taurus?

Things are bound to be pretty crazy there at the moment ... even if he's OK he doesn't necessarily have the time or inclination to log on to 'poly.

Hopefully we'll get word from him soon.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
This whole sh*t (Palestine, Iraq you name it!) really pisses me off! Most everyone in the entire world only wants to live in peace, but the people in power are the ones that mess this up!

We should carpet bomb everything from Gaza to Iran.
These Aholes have been at it for over 50 YEARS and
hav'nt learned a frickin' thing. Arab/Israeli/Pal who cares
anymore, every one of their countries is just a pain in the ass to the rest of the world.

[Guardian]

I wish people would stop making silly arguments about who did what and who is more or less guilty than whomever else at times like this, because it's really quite irrelevant.

Sure, the big picture is complex, and are wrong-doers on both sides in the Middle East, just like everywhere else. But on days like this, that's not the point.

On days like this, that's not even relevant.

On days like this, the simple truth is that blowing up a bus full of civilians is wrong, and there is no excuse for that kind of behavior.

On days like this, it is as simple as that.

Tomorrow we can discuss Sharon's policies and settlements and whatever else again, but today it is the people of Haifa who are the victims of a crime, and by God, they have a right to be upset about it!

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ozz
We should carpet bomb everything from Gaza to Iran.
These Aholes have been at it for over 50 YEARS and
hav'nt learned a frickin' thing. Arab/Israeli/Pal who cares
anymore, every one of their countries is just a pain in the ass to the rest of the world.

One more post like that and you are toast...

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Ming

One more post like that and you are toast...

Well spread me with butter and jam!.

It 's ugly.... and it's true. 50 years of asnine religious warfare spilling out into the rest of the world. Refute it?
defend it ? or is it easier to censor it.

The truth will set you free... or get you banned.

You get the last word in, obviously

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ozz
or is it easier to censor it.

The truth will set you free... or get you banned.

I have no problem with people stating their postions on the issues... obviously, from the number of posts made by both sides, neither side is being censored...

However... it was you comment to carpet bomb the whole region that was the problem. If you want to post crap like that, find somewhere else to do so... You're hateful crap isn't welcome on this site.

[Sirotnikov]

Taurus is also ok.

First I'd like to offer my sincere condolences to the Israel state for its latest civilian casualties, but these unfortunately will continue until there is a genuine will for it to stop in the minds of the leaders and extremists on BOTH sides...

Thank you

It is good to note that Israel seems to be finally allowing marriages involving non Jews, at least that is a step in the right direction for the rights of Non Jews, or Jews wanting to marry non Jews...

thank you again... I voted for Shinui, the party that allowed that.

To explain the situation - It's not a function of Israel's position but of the power that ultra-orthodox had in the Knesset.

The only bodies that can administrate marriages in Israel have so far been religious courts. But jewish religious courts are all controlled by the orthodox.

The orthodox see marrying out of religion as losing your religion, and therefore say that they can not marry a jew and a non-jew in a jewish religious ceremony, unless the non-jew converted in a full orthodox ceremony.

Jews and non-jews could either marry in non-jewish religious courts (thus effectively converting himself to non-jew in the eyes of the interior office, which was controlled by ultra-orthodox), or marry in a ceremony in other country, and return to Israel - their marriage was recognized by the state.

Shinui propogates civil marriage. It has been agreed now, (as a first step I hope), that there could be civil marraiges for jews and non-jews. But still, a jew marrying a jew has to marry in a religious court (which not everyone want).

Yeah Oerdin, well Israel has killed many more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis - more importantly Israel has killed a higher proportion of children than the Palestinians. Interesting considering the Palestinians are supposed to be targeting children when the IDF are not...?

Actually it's easily explainable:

While Israeli children are being sought out in buses,
Palestinian children come to the front lines, throwing rocks, molotovs and at times firing automatic weapons.

There have been 17 y/o suicide bombers. I wouldn't consider them in the children category.

But then your [insert relevant word], precludes you from considering that your statement may be a little unreasonable...

same can be said about you

You know, change 'Yasser Arafat' and 'terrorism' to Ariel Sharon and settlements and you'd still be talking sense...

I see how can the settlements be considered a war crime according to international war laws known to me, and without knowing the full history of the area (many of the settlements existed before 1948, and were infact wiped out by the Jordanian invasion).

However, there is no way you can equate between building a house on (supposedly) foreign land, and exploding a bomb in the middle of a foreign bus.

This whole sh*t (Palestine, Iraq you name it!) really pisses me off! Most everyone in the entire world only wants to live in peace, but the people in power are the ones that mess this up!

Correct.

When we reap these policies it is the innocent civilian that gets killed - Blair has made London a prime target for a major terrorist attack, but is he going to be here when we go to war with Iraq - is he f*ck, he'll be safe in a bunker somewhere!

Look, both pan-arabic pro-palestinian terorrism, and iraq are problems of nations using terrorism against peaceful citizens.

If, out of fear of retalyation, or out of unclear internation laws, we do not enforce laws on rogue countries - we would pay a much higher price.

That's the whole problem with the UN - it moans and groans and does nothing. It has no backing to it's word.

If for every country that disobeyed it - you would enforce the decision - then there wouldn't be these problems.

The arabs would have been restricted, and so would Israel.

The reason why I as an Israeli distrust the UN, other than it has a large block of nations rogue to Israel, is that it always backs out.

It promised to keep peace on the Lebanon border. After it did nothing to stop kidnaps and prevent the Hezballa from putting up more waepons, it renamed it's peace-observing forces troops to merely "monitors", so their job descrption would not include anything.

It's like having a world police which would just send nasty looking stares at criminals, without doing anything.

Same with Bush and the same with Sharon - it's us poor saps the civilians that get it in the neck every time and most of the time we don't even agree with their actions...

Oh, it's funny how we in democratic countries, are abused by our leaders, while the people of the autocratical regimes of Iraq, and the PA, don't have a say at all.

Maybe things'll start changing after the peace protests we've seen, but before then there'll be an awful lot more Haifa Buses and 9 months pregnant women crushed to death in their homes.

Things do not change from protests.

Things change from actions.

When you enforce resolutions on rogue states (all of them!) then you can hope for peace.

If you protest to do nothing - nothing comes out.

[FrustratedPoet]

When you enforce resolutions on rogue states (all of them!) then you can hope for peace.

In many cases attempts to force them to accept outside resolutions is what has turned them into 'rogue states'. You can't make people behave like rational, tolerant citizens of the world by fighting them - that only breeds suffering and contempt on both sides.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Guardian
Tomorrow we can discuss Sharon's policies and settlements and whatever else again, but today it is the people of Haifa who are the victims of a crime, and by God, they have a right to be upset about it!

While I grant you that they have a right to be upset, this merely is the latest link in an unbroken chain of violent revenge and/or retaliation events.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
While I grant you that they have a right to be upset, this merely is the latest link in an unbroken chain of violent revenge and/or retaliation events.

Exactly.
We've seen similar things happen in Northern Ireland, where two sides get caught in an endless loop of violent retaliation. Similar stories happen all over the world, I suppose.

The sad fact is that there are no easy answers and there can be no hope for peace until at least one side says "Hold on, this is too much, we're not going to fight anymore".
I recognise the right (even duty) of a governement to protect it's citizens from harm, but as long as both sides are taking violent revenge on the other then there can never be peace.