Israel's Political Prisoners

[Az]

If the law violates individual rights

Oh, don't get me started on THAT.

[The Mad Monk]

So, when pro-life demonstrators are locked up for being to close to an abortion clinic, they are political prisoners?

Careful, Che. In seeking to elevate this boy's admittedly noble act, you may end up reducing an entirely different level of sacrifice to something...less.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Giant_Squid
For people who want drafts without reason, like that US legislature a few months ago, I have no sympathy or respect whatsoever.

Uhhhh... one moron stated that a draft would be good... the US legislature has NOT wanted a draft in MANY, MANY, MANY years.

[Az]

I don't remember what political orientation you were, but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves. The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves. I don't think any Israeli, even the guy in this article, wants Israel to be destroyed, they're just hoping that its destruction can be prevented without them. Which is in my opinion a rather risky point of view. I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

actually this guy thinks that by leaving the territories we would have peace, and security.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ming
Uhhhh... one moron stated that a draft would be good... the US legislature has NOT wanted a draft in MANY, MANY, MANY years.

Ming: 28 years isn't that long...

[Ming]

Probably a majority of the people on this site haven't even been alive for 28 years... It is a long time

[Ramo]

I beg to differ. They have about six or seven larger countries all around them that highly dislike them and many of which still refuse to even include them on their maps because 'they're not a real country and we'll manage to get rid of them soon enough anyway'

Let's see. Israel's neighbors are Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and possibly Iraq if it cooperates with Syria. Egypt and Jordan obviously would never attack. Saudi Arabia would never attack unless there's a coup. Iraq would never attack unless it wants to speed up an American invasion. So, all that's left is Syria. Not exactly a major threat to Israel given the technological and economic disparity. Particularly given Israel's allies (i.e. the US). Certainly, they would never be able to wipe out Israel's population.

Every couple of days they get a new terrorist attack on them. There are countless organizations committed to their destruction.

Which would be reduced significantly if Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza. Even more so, if Israel takes a more enlightened approach with respect to immigration and trade. These are some of the issues driving the refuseniks.

Israel is safe (to the extent that it is) right now BECAUSE they have a large military. If they didn't, I think you can guess as well as I what would happen to them, and if you need a hint, it's what's happened to them something like five or six times in the past fifty years - mass Arab invasion

1. AFAIK, there were only 3 wars involving multiple Arab states (the Lebanese War was bilateral).
2. In two of those wars (the Independence and 6-Day Wars), Israeli agression played a significant part. In the Independence War, the vast majority of the fighting took place outside of Israel and much of it involved Arabs fighting against Arabs. It was for the most part a partition of Palestine, not an invasion of Israel.

I don't remember what political orientation you were,

Anarcho-syndicalist.

but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves.

Bad analogy. Defending one's state would involve self-interest under the aforementioned circumstances, charity usually doesn't.

The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves.

Chickenhawks? I don't much care for their opinion.

I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

1. If Israel ends its occupation, a significant portion of its military wouldn't be needed.
2. Why do you say this? Many European states certainly don't need to conscript, but they do it anyways.

[Zevico]

Ramo, please, learn something about the situation before you stick your head in.
1. Israel ended its occupation. Then Arafat called for the intifada. Why? His excuse was that some old fart of a politican with no chance of being elected walked in a public place. Many PA officials actually admit that they had planned for the intifada months before it began, or the excuse of Mr. Sharon's visit was given.
In addition, you are truly ignorant if you honestly believe anything an Arab government says. Israel at least has some credibility; Arab states as well as the PA have always lied about what their intentions were.

[Ramo]

Israel ended its occupation

No it didn't. There was a less oppressive occupation than currently, yes, but West Bank and Gaza were never autonomous under Israeli rule. That's why they've been considered "occupied territories."

In addition, you are truly ignorant if you honestly believe anything an Arab government says.

What are you on about? Specific comment please.

And yes, I do believe some things that Arab gov't's say. For instance, I don't think any of them would dispute that the Earth is round.

[Edan]

1. If Israel ends its occupation, a significant portion of its military wouldn't be needed.

Right, because before Israel occupied those territories, there were no wars or any terrorism against Israel. Oh wait. There were.

[Ramo]

I didn't say all of it wouldn't be needed. And times have changed.

[Az]

There was a less oppressive occupation than currently

the vast majority (~99%) of the palestinians were under autonomous countrol, and free movement throughout the autonomy, And the peace process was going in the way of establishing a palestinian State. and yes, it would've been territorially intact.

I tend to believe Dennis Ross more than electronicintifada.com

Let's see. Israel's neighbors are Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and possibly Iraq if it cooperates with Syria. Egypt and Jordan obviously would never attack. Saudi Arabia would never attack unless there's a coup. Iraq would never attack unless it wants to speed up an American invasion. So, all that's left is Syria. Not exactly a major threat to Israel given the technological and economic disparity. Particularly given Israel's allies (i.e. the US). Certainly, they would never be able to wipe out Israel's population.

And historically, we've reached this situation ONLY because we historically had a strong army, that relied on conscription and drafts.

[Ramo]

the vast majority (~99%) of the palestinians were under autonomous countrol, and free movement throughout the autonomy, And the peace process was going in the way of establishing a palestinian State. and yes, it would've been territorially intact.

Water, trade barriers, permits, immigration. Blah, blah, blah.... blah. Sure you want to rehash this?

I tend to believe Dennis Ross more than electronicintifada.com

And historically, we've reached this situation ONLY because we historically had a strong army, that relied on conscription and drafts.

1. That's not relevant to the current situation.
2. Why do you say that?

[Az]

Water, trade barriers, permits, immigration. Blah, blah, blah.... blah. Sure you want to rehash this?

I didn't say they were an independent state yet. That's what the negotiations are for. And yes, I believe that Israel would give palestinians their water resources. It gave water resources to Jordan, though it didn't present a major nuisance, like the conflict with the palestinians is to Israel.

SOME sites on the internet have started to spread the information that Israel's final offer was some sort of cantonization. This has been denied by Dennis Ross, a veteran of american efforts to mediate the conflict in the Clinton era.

1. That's not relevant to the current situation.

How is the past of the conflict not relevant to the current geo-political situation in regards to the relation of Israel and it's neighbours?

2. Why do you say that?

It was Israel's military might that let it stay as a sovereign country in the region, not it neighbours' respect for her souvereignity. Its' regular conscription of its' youth, has created a very large percentage of its' population that is battle trained, and capable, and therefor, its' drafted soldiers were of relative high quality, being exprienced in procedures of the army, handling military equipment, etc.

[Eli]

Ramo :

Look on the security reasons.

1) Israel has huge numerical inferiority.
2) It cannot survive a prolonged war. That's why we either win decisively and quickly, or lose everything.

So if war starts, we need all our men capable of fighting ASAP. 48 hours at maximum.

The Israeli standing army is too small to wage total war, this is why we rely on reserves.

So currently, if total war breaks out the standing army is on it's own for a few hours/days, and then it's more or less quadrupled by the reserves.

Those reserves are people who've been in the army, know what to do and how, get 30 days of training every year. Basically they are quality personnel.

If draft becomes voluntary, first the standing army will become much smaller. And then, a few decades later the reserves will be almost nonexistant.

So what happens if we really need those hundreds of thousands of men? Countries like the US or other big countries if they are faced with total war have weeks and months to train more people.
We dont have that luxury. We need everyone who is capable of fighting to fight as soon as possible.