Israel's Political Prisoners

[Pekka]

It should be obvious that every man must fight in war. No drafting, everyone goes.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Ramo
Drafts are always immoral in the extreme. Just because a representative gov't supports a law doesn't make it something you should necessarily obey.

What makes it right for you - an individual within the society - to say that those elected representatives of all of the society are wrong in their deciding whether a law is moral or not? You can question a law, or seek to change it. You can even disobey the law - but you should be prepared for the consequences if you do so. You shouldn't think "oh, this law doesn't apply to me". Or you could easily be justifying Joe Homicidals killing rampage - after all, he only did it for civil disobedience.

[Az]

It's a question of ethics, Edan.

[Ramo]

What makes it right for you - an individual within the society - to say that those elected representatives of all of the society are wrong in their deciding whether a law is moral or not?

I believe that force should be opposed whenever it cannot be justified. I don't think slavery can be justified. As for what makes it right for me to have these beliefs, that's kind of how the human brain works. It's up to each individual to construct one's own ethical system. I will not have mine dictated by the state.

If the US gov't started legally rounding up members of your ethnic group for extermination, would you meekly go along with it?

You can even disobey the law - but you should be prepared for the consequences if you do so.

What does that mean? It's not like I'd be locked up with my consent.

You shouldn't think "oh, this law doesn't apply to me". Or you could easily be justifying Joe Homicidals killing rampage - after all, he only did it for civil disobedience.

If he believes there's nothing wrong with killing rampages, then he justified it to himself. Not to me.

[Giant_Squid]

It's one thing to have a draft law, Squid. It's another thing to be forced to support what you feel is an immoral and illegal war.

I don't quite get what you mean. You're saying it's okay to have a law, but it's not okay to make people follow it? That sort of defeats the whole purpose of it being a law, doesn't it?
Conscientious objection is great, but a conscientious objector has to be willing to suffer the penalties, or else he's just someone trying to weasel out of something. If you honestly believe no one should be given any punishment for refusing to follow a law they do not personally believe, then that is both beautifully idealistic and flagrantly impossible in a sane society.

And if perhaps you meant to discuss the morality of a draft, then this thread should have been titled "The Morality of Draft Law" instead of something nasty and provocative against Israel, no?

[Giant_Squid]

Ramo:

I believe that force should be opposed whenever it cannot be justified. I don't think slavery can be justified. As for what makes it right for me to have these beliefs, that's kind of how the human brain works. It's up to each individual to construct one's own ethical system. I will not have mine dictated by the state.

Ramo, wouldn't you say that a draft in a country that is very likely to need all the military it can get if it doesn't want its entire population to be wiped out is a pretty decent justification? Or the draft in general, assuming it's in a country where it is necessary for defensive purposes rather than offensive? I don't have any figures, but I would guess there are a lot of small countries where if not for the draft their armies would never get big enough to hold off the nearest aggressive invader.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Azazel
and please NOT ANOTHER M.E. THREAD!!!

Can't take the scrutiny, can ya?

Oh, and you've used some top-notch arguments so far.

[Pekka]

In a country where there is mandatory service and troubled times, it's everyones personal duty to defend their own country, whether they feel alienated or not.

But personally I give respect to anyone who follows their conscious, if they really do feel like it's wrong. If they are not using it as an excuse to weasel out because they think they are something special, or just too lazy, or think their life is more important than others. But if problem is ideological, I respect their wishes. In Israels situation.. I don't know.. I'm not sure how legal it is to do that so.. but no one is telling them to kill innocent civilians. This guy could still just join, and make sure he treats Palestinians fairly, and courages others to do the same. Show good example. I think that would be more effective to the cost, than just refusing and making things hard for himself. Giving more positive image to IDF, and most of all gaining some respect in the eyes of Palestinians as fair soldier even if it was near to impossible. But that's just my opinion, and there are as many opinions as there are people in this world.

It's just that I think if you want to make a change, you have to play the game. And it doesn't matter what game you play, it matters how you play the game. Refusing service only devides people, and I believe in Israel makes you minority. Just play the game in order to change it, don't drop out and blame the game if you cant' stop it anyway.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ramo
Just telling you my personal morality. I don't like slavery, regardless of who the master is.

Sorry, but your personal morality doesn't matter. Things like "morality" are formed by group consensus; you may not like it but it is true.

[GePap]

While I agree with the kid's actions, they are not political prisoners per say. Drafts are not illegal, and if you have a draft, you can put people in prison for not doing their civic duty. to me p[olitical prisoners are indviduals held solely for their political beliefs. These boys do have political belief opposite of those of the government, but they are in prison for breaking a valid law.

[monkspider]

Don't be so tough on Israel comrade, even if they are wrong in this particular instance.

[Ramo]

Ramo, wouldn't you say that a draft in a country that is very likely to need all the military it can get if it doesn't want its entire population to be wiped out is a pretty decent justification?

The population of Israel is in no real danger of being "wiped out."

Or the draft in general, assuming it's in a country where it is necessary for defensive purposes rather than offensive? I don't have any figures, but I would guess there are a lot of small countries where if not for the draft their armies would never get big enough to hold off the nearest aggressive invader.

If the people believe their state is worth defending, they could join the military. If a military needs a draft to operate, that's a good indication that the war and/or state running the war is morally questionable.

Sorry, but your personal morality doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter to whom?

Things like "morality" are formed by group consensus; you may not like it but it is true.

What are you referring to when you say "morality?" Moral values held in consensus are indeed formed by consensus. Which doesn't mean anything. Moral values held by an individual are formed by an individual even if society reinforces or shapes these values.

[Dinner]

Idea's such a societial values & ideas of moral or immoral behavior are socially constructed. In essience it is held to be immoral because the majority of the people agree it is immoral. Just like the word "red" is socially constructed to mean the color red. All socially constructed things are created when a group of people all for a consensus and agree that a certain sound or symbol should mean a certain idea or sound.

You will find that all of our commonly held beliefs including ideas like "right", "wrong", "justified", "unjustified", "moral", etc are socially constructed.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Ramo

Sorry, but your personal morality doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter to whom?

To deciding if you go to jail (or get a fine or whatever punishment) after commiting an illegal act.

[Ned]

I would take all the young men like him and house them in an unprotected neighborhood in Gaza. Perhaps they would be heroes to the Palestinians. Perhaps they will be killed. In either case, they do not deserve to live with their fellow citizens who they consider racists. They should live with the people they admire, the Palestinians.