Israel's Political Prisoners

[Ramo]

Idea's such a societial values & ideas of moral or immoral behavior are socially constructed. In essience it is held to be immoral because the majority of the people agree it is immoral. Just like the word "red" is socially constructed to mean the color red. All socially constructed things are created when a group of people all for a consensus and agree that a certain sound or symbol should mean a certain idea or sound.
You will find that all of our commonly held beliefs including ideas like "right", "wrong", "justified", "unjustified", "moral", etc are socially constructed.

They are constructed in a social context, shaped by various aspects of a society (including non-majoritarian influences), but they are not constructed by societies. Societies don't have brains. Moral systems are constructed by individuals just as any other philosophical construct is. If I hold something to be immoral, it is immoral in my ethics system. If you hold something to be immoral, it is immoral in your ethics system.

To deciding if you go to jail (or get a fine or whatever punishment) after commiting an illegal act.

?
I never asserted that my personal beliefs had any effect on Israeli law...

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Idea's such a societial values & ideas of moral or immoral behavior are socially constructed. In essience it is held to be immoral because the majority of the people agree it is immoral. Just like the word "red" is socially constructed to mean the color red. All socially constructed things are created when a group of people all for a consensus and agree that a certain sound or symbol should mean a certain idea or sound.

Noo no no no, what you're talking about are word definitions. Very different.

[Shi Huangdi]

"These people are breaking the law. The law was passed by an elected government and if they want to change it then they should try to organize a political party. Don't you see we would have anarchy if every person got to ignore the laws they didn't like? "I don't want to pay my taxes because I don't like how the Congress spends money" or "I think speeding laws are facist so I'm going to ignore them" would just be the tip of the iceberg."

Well I think on the other side of the spectrum, you can't just support anything a government does because it was elected. Do you think it was right for blacks to resists de jure segregation in the south? I think the key is if you really think what the government is doing is wrong, fine engage in civil disobedience but be prepared to accept the consequences. I think in this case a person is willing to stand up for what he believes in and is willing to go to jail for it and that is admirable.

[Zevico]

You're saying Israel isn't under threat of its existence? The Intifada has had about a thousand terror attacks, and these are the 10% of terror attacks that weren't caught before they happened, including some BIG ones such as an explosion of an oil (gas? I don't remember) storage area that was stopped before it could happen. It had the potential (AFAI remember, don't quoet me on this one) to kill thousands of people.
Add to that the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile countries such as Lebanon, which allows Hezbollah to shell the Iraeli border, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia (all of which fund terrorist organisations such as Fatah/Hamas/Islamic Jihad and etc), and you're saying Israel's existence isn't threatened!?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I think the key is if you really think what the government is doing is wrong, fine engage in civil disobedience but be prepared to accept the consequences. I think in this case a person is willing to stand up for what he believes in and is willing to go to jail for it and that is admirable.

Kudos to BD for cutting to the heart of the matter. This young man ha a personal belief that aid the occupation in any way is immoral. Rather than be allowed to weasal out of it by taking any of the deals offered, he is standing his ground and is prepared to go to prison over his beliefs. But he's not simply going to lie down and accept it, he's going to fight it, because he believes it's wrong.

Going to jail for your beliefs makes you a political prisoner.

[Az]

Going to jail for your beliefs makes you a political prisoner.

Correct, but he's not in jail for his beliefs.

Tandee, great points.

[Seeker]

"These people are breaking the law. The law was passed by an elected government and if they want to change it then they should try to organize a political party. Don't you see we would have anarchy if every person got to ignore the laws they didn't like?"

The above is what I would call fascism.

'The place for a moral man when confronted by an immoral law is in jail'
-H.D.T.

The fact that a law was passed by an elected government does not make it moral or legal.

Liberal Democracy=the rights of the individual+democracy.

If the law violates individual rights, then it is not a law at all, it is null and void, just the baying and hooting of a mob of men with guns, whose only authority and legitimacy comes from fear and power.

If he is in prison because he was faced with a law that violated his right to freedom of conscience, then yes he is of course a political prisoner.

Israel should make the draft voluntary anyway, conscription is immoral.

If the price of security is immorality, violation of right, then we are all better off dead than living a lie.

[Panag]

hi ,

political prisoner , ..... , ...... nah he is not a political prisoner , ......

have a nice day

[Seeker]

Why is he not?

Just not wanting him to be one doesn't make it so.

[Az]

Because he's not inprisoned for his views. He's imprisoned for desertion, disobeying order or something like that.

[chequita guevara]

Well, he's not in prison at all yet, though other signers of the Seniors Declaration are. But he very likely will be imprisoned.

[Ming]

Using your definition... EVERYBODY in jail is a political prisoner A thief caught stealing obviously doesn't believe in a law against it... so he must be a political prisoner as well since he is just standing up for his rights while breaking the law and is being put in prison for it

[Eli]

If the price of security is immorality, violation of right, then we are all better off dead than living a lie.

Cant blame you for believing in that.

When security is guaranteed, you can allow yourself to think about morals and ethics. When it's not, your perspectives change very quickly.

[Shi Huangdi]

Calling him a political prisoner isn't using the best term. Political prisoner brings to mind someone who is arrested by the secret police for condemning the actions of the government. Not quite the same thing as having mandatory military service during a time of war.

[Giant_Squid]

The population of Israel is in no real danger of being "wiped out."

I beg to differ. They have about six or seven larger countries all around them that highly dislike them and many of which still refuse to even include them on their maps because 'they're not a real country and we'll manage to get rid of them soon enough anyway' Every couple of days they get a new terrorist attack on them. There are countless organizations committed to their destruction. Israel is safe (to the extent that it is) right now BECAUSE they have a large military. If they didn't, I think you can guess as well as I what would happen to them, and if you need a hint, it's what's happened to them something like five or six times in the past fifty years - mass Arab invasion.

If the people believe their state is worth defending, they could join the military. If a military needs a draft to operate, that's a good indication that the war and/or state running the war is morally questionable.

I don't remember what political orientation you were, but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves. The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves. I don't think any Israeli, even the guy in this article, wants Israel to be destroyed, they're just hoping that its destruction can be prevented without them. Which is in my opinion a rather risky point of view. I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

For people who want drafts without reason, like that US legislature a few months ago, I have no sympathy or respect whatsoever.