Whatever is wrong with #2: Calling it a War for Oil

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I am against the war for the very same reasons I am for an active rebuilding, led by Europe :

- I care about civilian deaths (yes, pro-peace people aren't necessarily Saddam-apologists looking for fruitous oil deals ), and Iraq will be even more in shambles after the war than it is now, which means even more misery, famine and disease.

- I care about thwarting terrorism and support for fundamentalism. While misery isn't the only reason for people to support fundamentalism, it is an important reason, and we should adress it since we can.

If you're anti-Amercian enough to let millions Iraqi die, I wonder how you can picture yourself as a "comrade"

another excellent post, spiff

Im prowar, but you are one of the few on the other side of the fence who give good, rational arguements.

Comrade tribune

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Kramerman
another excellent post, spiff

Im prowar, but you are one of the few on the other side of the fence who give good, rational arguements.

Comrade tribune

Thanks for the compliment!

I wouldn´t want you (or anybody who thinks Spiff writes excellent posts) to me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I call BS che. Realists are mystified by the war.

I don't see why. It's classic RealPolitik. One needs only read Wolfowitz's paper. It's like listening to Kissinger thrity years ago.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever is wrong with #2: Calling it a War for Oil

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
This is an interesting line of thought. The problem is that Saddam *did* play along. He isn´t a threat (or even a nuisance) to the US at all. I wish he were.

Hussein didn't play along. He thwarted inspections. He's radar locked our planes in the no fly zone. He refuses to do what the US says. Most countries in the world have obeyed the US since the Gulf War. Yugoslavia didn't, they got bombed. The people of Ecuador overthrew their government, the US growled, and the Ecuadoran military stepped in. Argentina and Venzeula's economies are screaming. Brazil's will soon too.

And Still Hussein defies us. It makes us look bad. At a time when the US is going around the world stomping on terrorists, we have this one guy in the heart of the region who still refuses to obey.

What if other countries decide they don't have to obey? Better to crush one country today than have to crush half a dozen tomorrow.

[DinoDoc]

If I could be told a coherent reason realist reason I might be open to changing my mind, but as of now I find the pro-war arguements (especially the one you put forth) seriously lacking on the merits.

Of course, I find some of the anti-war arguements I've seen lacking on the merits as well.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
I´d rather the Empire to end, asap.

Its end may have desastrous consequences for your living standards.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Yes, and that exactly is my point: That the interests of Israel seem to matter more to many of them than the interests of their (non-Jewish) fellow Americans.

Let alone US reputation and Allies.

Noticing this fact makes me a conspiracist in the somewhat dimly-lit mental world of Dino.

CT, Why don't you drop your conspiracy theories. The Jews in the US do support Israel. So do the majority of Americans. The whole country supports Israel.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
If I could be told a coherent reason realist reason I might be open to changing my mind, but as of now I find the pro-war arguements (especially the one you put forth) seriously lacking on the merits.

Of course, I find some of the anti-war arguements I've seen lacking on the merits as well.

So are you pro-war or anti-war, DD?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
If I could be told a coherent reason realist reason I might be open to changing my mind,

Well then let me shut up.

[The Vagabond]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever is wrong with #2: Calling it a War for Oil

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
At a time when the US is going around the world stomping on terrorists, we have this one guy in the heart of the region who still refuses to obey.

Good presentation of a pro-war argument, Che, especially taking into account that you seem to belong to the anti-war camp.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever is wrong with #2: Calling it a War for Oil

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Good presentation of a pro-war argument, Che, especially taking into account that you seem to belong to the anti-war camp.

It's not the "pro-war argument." The pro-war argument is that Hussein is a bad and dangerous man. We have to get him before he gives WoMD to terrorists or uses them against us. Often times, there are references made to defying the UN, but these are the same people who hate the UN 99% of the time, so that argument carries no weight, especially when they ignore the UNSC resolutions that Israel continues to disobey.

The government's pro-war argument is all about the UN, because that sells to the middle-Americans, i.e., those who really don't like war and don't have some sick need to see the sun never set on the American flag, but aren't opposed to war when it's really necessary. It's a sham, a trick. The UN is irrelevent. The US doesn't give a damn about the UN and certainly doesn't want to prop up some theoretical authority the UN might have. Lord almighty, these are arch-conservatives we're talking about here. Why is it that they are arguing about the need to enforce for the UN, when they've spent the last 50 years degrading it.



And of course I understand it. I have a very good understanding of Marxism, which allows me to cut through the BS of all other politics, including many so-called Marxists. A very powerful analytic tool, Marxism, when it's properly understood, and not some characiture.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Nothing will explode here in Europe, as long *as we make clear we do not identify with the US*. Which is the most important thing to do right now.

Yes, if you're a bunch of weak, sniveling cowards, the Islamic fundamentalists will ignore you for the time being, as you're not a threat to them, just amoral infidels.

Europe first, and let America go down the drain. Best thing that could happen, ever.

And when the **** hits your fan, who'll be around to bail you out this time, baby? Better learn which way Mecca is from your house and start reading up on your Qu'ran.

[DinoDoc]

che: One of the problems with the theory you are espousing right now (as I see it) is that Iraq is contained which makes his defiance largely irrelevent.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Iam not sure you get me. What I am meaning to say is, US treat Europe, *as if* it were a colony, or an outpost of their Empire, something I definitely do not want to be. I´d rather the Empire to end, asap.

Well, if you don't like it, then maybe Europe should belly up to the bar and start exerting some real leadership in the world.

[Spiffor]

MtG :
Comrade fundamentally didn't understand we're in the same **** as you. I don't think it is possible to reason with him, he assumes too much reason from the religious zealots.

Edit : As soon as some European countries disagree, they're called names by the US and by many Americans / mainstream media. I highly doubt the US want to see Europe any different than an obeying vassal.