Question about ethics of Cold War policy.

[Lancer]

"SNAP!"

CRACKLE POP!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Inventions aren't as important anymore anyway. We have enough inventions now for all the world to live comfortably.

I bet this was said in 1900 as well.

In 2100, someone would look at that statement as applying to the year 2000 and simply laugh.

Oh, and as for entrepenurs, communities don't tend to take many of the risks. Most people are risk averse, it is certain individuals that take risks in society.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DuncanK
Inventions aren't as important anymore anyway. We have enough inventions now for all the world to live comfortably.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.

[Ned]

Inventions? Commie's should stick to what they do best, telling other people how they should live. Inventions are for capitalists.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Inventions aren't as important anymore anyway. We have enough inventions now for all the world to live comfortably.

I bet this was said in 1900 as well.

In 2100, someone would look at that statement as applying to the year 2000 and simply laugh.

Oh, and as for entrepenurs, communities don't tend to take many of the risks. Most people are risk averse, it is certain individuals that take risks in society.

Yeah, thousands of people make bad risks every year in this country. That's a huge waste of resouces.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.

Most of the 'inventions' made in this country are made by people who are paid to come up with these things and the risk is taken by a corporation where the risk is spread out among many people. Exactly why do you think that capitalism has a monopoly on ideas and inventions. The USSR had their fair share.

edit: I should have made this a response to Ned instead.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Inventions aren't as important anymore anyway. We have enough inventions now for all the world to live comfortably.

I bet this was said in 1900 as well.

In 2100, someone would look at that statement as applying to the year 2000 and simply laugh.

I didn't say that there were no more inventions to come up with. There are always a bunch of new products coming out. It's amazing that marketing departments can keep coming out with new produtcts for us to buy. However, not much of it really changes our lives significantly. The point is that a lot of resources are devoted to producing diferent crap each year for us to spend money on. Those resources should be used to come up with real ideas to improve our lives or used to feed the masses.

[Shi Huangdi]

"
Nah, why do you think we hate communist dictators more than the other dictators"

Communist dictators during the cold war tended to support the Soviet Union and support International Communism. Communism was a global ideology, right-wings thugs were just thugs who looked after their own personal interests.

"There is the exception of Cuba, which has done ok."

Only if you consider totaltarian states where you are not allowed to leave the country to be ok.

"That's one of the Big Lies invented by the US during the Cold War. Lenin never said or wrote such a thing."

Whether he said or not was immaterial, I used it to make a point. Marx talked about international revolution, it was the goal of communism to get the entire world to go communist. To this end, the Soviet Union started the Comintern.

"Next you have to ask yourself, would the Communist countries have been so paranoid if the West hadn't constanty been trying to destroy them. "

They still would likely have promoted communism. Communism was never an ideology meant to exist side by side in peace with capitalism. Anyway, much of the terror initally started with Lenin against Domestic Opponents, and then later with Stalin in power communism would have gone down the paranoid route no matter what. Moreover, if say during when the US was formed we came under severe monarchist attempts to destroy us, you wouldn't say it'd be ok to take our freedoms to combat it would you? In the same vein I doubt you think highly of measures that restrict our freedom today in the wake of terrorists attempts to destroy us. Nothing can excuse the totaltarian states that when up in the red part of the world during the cold war.

"
And all along, the followers of one of the leaders of the Russian Revolution were pointing out what had gone wrong. We call ourselves Trotskyists. You can flame the Communists all you want, but now days, us Trots are the main game in town "

Talk about your own brand of socialism all you want, but this thread was about the cold war policy, and the socialists we were facing off against then were an evil.

[DuncanK]

Ok then, to the question of whether yjr Cold War policy was evil or not.

The countries who had communist revolutions did so for two main reasons, Imperialism and capitalism. I think Imperialism is the more relevent to the topic here. Is defending your nation and other nations against Imperialism justified? Most people say yes. Is Imperialism justified? Most people say no. Since the USSR was fighting against Imperialism the policies which were designed to sabotage the achievement of this goal were unjustified and we could even say evil.

Was the USSR evil? Yes, but as I said before, the US was not fighting the USSR because they were evil. They were fighting them because the USSR was communist and the US was Imperialist.

[Ned]

Whose imperialism was the USSR fighting against but its own? I didn't see the USSR give up one inch of the Russian Empire.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, thousands of people make bad risks every year in this country. That's a huge waste of resouces.

And the system ends up with successes that totally make up for the waste of bad risks, and then some.

I didn't say that there were no more inventions to come up with. There are always a bunch of new products coming out. It's amazing that marketing departments can keep coming out with new produtcts for us to buy. However, not much of it really changes our lives significantly. The point is that a lot of resources are devoted to producing diferent crap each year for us to spend money on. Those resources should be used to come up with real ideas to improve our lives or used to feed the masses.

Who is to decide what 'improves our lives'? Hell, I think my George Foreman Grill improves my lives (and feeds the masses ).

And those Plasma TVs, TIVO, DVDs, etc. improve my life too.

Add all the inovations up and within 25 years the collective mass of them improve our lives significantly.

[DuncanK]

Imran,

The point is that improvements can be made in a communist system too. There is even the possibility of making improvements as great as the George Foreman Grill.

[DuncanK]

Ned,

The USSR was not fighting against itself. The question is whether the US was justified in fighting communism, not whether the USSR was Imperialist.

[DuncanK]

Re: Question about ethics of Cold War policy.

Originally posted by MrFun
But I have a question -- is it/was it ever ethical or morally right for the United States to go to war against a country simply because the country is communist?

Actually this is the question we are trying to address.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The point is that improvements can be made in a communist system too.

No, the point is that in ANY state run planned economic system, the rate of innovation is MUCH lower than a more free-market economy. Communists, such as Marx, will acknowledge capitalism is the BEST economy for innovation that has ever existed in history (of course they believe the trade-off is too much).

No other system in history has had the rate of innovation as the Capitalist West.