Question about ethics of Cold War policy.

[Lancer]

Shame shame shame.

Ned, thanks.

[SnowFire]

If one communist state does well then workers all over the world will see and they will want the same for themselves. So the owners of capital in the capitalist nations spread propaganda about communism being evil, because they fear loosing their elite status in their own country.

Oh, the delicious irony! In the old communist states of Eastern Europe, there precisely was propaganda about how horrible life was in the West, because if the people knew how good it was to be a worker there, they'd leave or overthrow the government! Not that this propaganda worked that well, since workers who could vote with their feet did, so they somehow knew that life over in the West was better.

Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it.

As a side note, I'm not actually saying communism is evil, and in fact would certainly agree that it's not in some "pure" form: perhaps not desireable, but not evil. But your comments about propaganda are most amusing.

[Lancer]

'Elite status' Here's Dennis Miller on the rich and their detractors. From memory...

People who complain about the rich will never get anywhere because everone is trying to get rich. Complaining about it is like going to a baseball game and complaining that nobody is playing soccer. Listen, people are like sailboats and money is like the wind, and with enough money you can pretty much get blown anywhere.

[DuncanK]

Hehe, very good SnowFire. I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. However, people are still afraid of communism being successfull. That's why capitalist governments are so hostile toward communist governments, and part of the reason that communist governments have had limited success.

[JohnT]

"Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it."

IMHO, that it most definitely not fine. Western Commies had no problem identifying (sp?) these countries as Communist for up to 70 years, even holding them up as Shining Examples of The True Communist Spirit.

But once it is beyond any doubt that their belief system results in oppression the likes that has never been seen before? They run away, crying "They corrupted my beliefs!"

Nah. That won't wash.

[MRT144]

duncan, you have got to be kidding me. people arent afraid of communism being succesful, people are afraid of communism turning into dictatorships like they always have!

[Lancer]

JohnT, very well said.

[JohnT]

Thank you, Lancer.

[South killer]

The cold war was amoral on both sides. The URSS was paranoid about the americans and also was expansionist, trying to expand communism and implanting its police-state regime everywhere.
On the other side, the americans were also paranoids about the URSS and were imperialists, putting puppet governments on every country they could, and starving other countries for their profit.
Usa was (and is) as bad as the URSS. USA did terrible things, as implanting dictatorships in South America (pinochet and others), the vietnam war, the invasion of granada, and the attempt of invasion to cuba.
I'm not stalinist, but I am marxist, as the REAL marxism said that money and private propiertry shouldn't exist and that the people should have the right to participate in the government.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The only "right" communism takes away is to be greedy. A true communist state would be democratic since the workers, the majority, would have power. As people on this thread have said, the so-called "communist" nations in history are acttually socialist dictatorships, not true communist states. Cuba is probably the only nation that is close to being a true, democratic, communist state, although there are a few things in Cuba I am against (like the government telling you where to work ).

The government telling you where to work is part of the stripping away of individualism. Though Cuba being 'democratic' is laughable. A creed dedicated to make everyone equal in the end would have, IMO, a chilling effect on individual creativity and entrepenuralism.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by MRT144
duncan, you have got to be kidding me. people arent afraid of communism being succesful, people are afraid of communism turning into dictatorships like they always have!

Nah, why do you think we hate communist dictators more than the other dictators?

edit: the US actually has supported many dictators and will do so in Iraq again after the transitional government leaves. The US obviously does not support communist dictators though. They are very hostile towards them.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by JohnT
"Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it."

IMHO, that it most definitely not fine. Western Commies had no problem identifying (sp?) these countries as Communist for up to 70 years, even holding them up as Shining Examples of The True Communist Spirit.

But once it is beyond any doubt that their belief system results in oppression the likes that has never been seen before? They run away, crying "They corrupted my beliefs!"

Nah. That won't wash.

I think there was only about 10 years there, probably less, that Westerners believed that the USSR was working for the people. That was when we were in the depression and there we a lot of 'band wagon' commies. After that no one really looked at these countries that way. There is the exception of Cuba, which has done ok.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The only "right" communism takes away is to be greedy. A true communist state would be democratic since the workers, the majority, would have power. As people on this thread have said, the so-called "communist" nations in history are acttually socialist dictatorships, not true communist states. Cuba is probably the only nation that is close to being a true, democratic, communist state, although there are a few things in Cuba I am against (like the government telling you where to work ).

The government telling you where to work is part of the stripping away of individualism. Though Cuba being 'democratic' is laughable. A creed dedicated to make everyone equal in the end would have, IMO, a chilling effect on individual creativity and entrepenuralism.

Better than the government telling you there is not job for you. Why do you think Cuban's are not creative. They seem to be solving their problems as they come. Entrepenures? You only need them in a market silly

[Ned]

Originally posted by DuncanK

edit: the US actually has supported many dictators and will do so in Iraq again after the transitional government leaves. The US obviously does not support communist dictators though. They are very hostile towards them.

DuncanK, Can it be because communism pretends to be an universal religion that will take over the world by force? Communist dictators for a long time were simply extensions of the USSR and for that reason were involved in the Cold War. However, to the extent they showed independence from the USSR, we showed less hostility. Yugoslavia under Tito was a good example.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Ned
However, to the extent they showed independence from the USSR, we showed less hostility. Yugoslavia under Tito was a good example.

Yes, their independence from the USSR was a great idea, look, what it got them: After the demise of the USSR, you destroyed them completely.

There is a great lesson in this: Ally with each and every enemy of the United States, as long as there is still time.