Republic of Alberta, Part III

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
It's also true that posting graphs without any sort of interpretation or commentary is the sign of a lack of ability to argue a case.

I'm sorry -- I guess I assumed too much of you. I'd thought they wouldn't need interpretation or commentary, and spoke for themselves? What would you like me to explain to you?

By the way, could you please stop avoiding the question: What university do you teach at, and what do you teach?

I'm betting it's something like "Interpretive Dance"...

[Fve Crathva]

Alberta has great steak, they just couldn't cook it to save their lives.

SP

[Asher]

Originally posted by Fve Crathva
Alberta has great steak, they just couldn't cook it to save their lives.

SP

Now Sir Penguin knows how to troll.

[Zopperoni]

Dang, Alberta has no retail sales tax?! o_O

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Zopperoni
Dang, Alberta has no retail sales tax?! o_O

Neither does Delaware!

And, in NYC at least, I don't have to pay sales tax on certain goods, like clothing.

[RedFred]

Those graphs seems highly suspect. The USA approximately the same educational level as the rest of the world?

Keep whining. Based on the history of Quebec it will take Ottawa about 100 years to figure out that all is not well in Alberta.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Zopperoni
Dang, Alberta has no retail sales tax?! o_O

We don't have any provincial retail sales tax. We, like all other Canadian provinces, have to pay a federal "GST" tax (7%) on most products. Stuff like food (as in fruits, etc, not McDonalds) is exempt from the tax, though.

The other provinces pay the GST tax, and *THEN* that additional PST (provincial sales tax) on top of it. Pricey.

If we had the same tax schemes as Quebec, the province would make $9B more per year, and our annual budget is $19B...

[Fve Crathva]

Originally posted by Asher

Now Sir Penguin knows how to troll.

So that was a troll!

I'm serious. The worst steak I've ever had was a dry, overcooked piece of rubbish served by some Albertan relatives. As for the blanket statement, my mom says so, so it must be true.

SP

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

I'm sorry -- I guess I assumed too much of you. I'd thought they wouldn't need interpretation or commentary, and spoke for themselves? What would you like me to explain to you?

By the way, could you please stop avoiding the question: What university do you teach at, and what do you teach?

I'm betting it's something like "Interpretive Dance"...

No, I'm doing a PhD in philosophy, and I have taught in one way ot another for seven years.

Now how about you do something more than whine about how badly Alberta is treated by the rest of Canada. I suppose you think that Canada should let Alberta go, and then let you all back in 100 years when the oil is all gone and you are snivelling in the cold.

I don't see the logic of your argument. You say Alberta pays too much in tax but receives very little back. So what, plenty of Canadians pay a lot in tax and receive very little back. The residents of Toronto pay far more in taxes and provide more benefits to the province of Ontario than they receive back (witness the declining state of the TTC and other public services). Should these individuals or the city of Toronto be allowed to declare themselves independent?

Your position seems to boil down to a typical tory tax gripe (and people who gripe about taxes have very little idea of why they exist). I'm sorry to inform you that in Western democracies many people pay more in tax than they receive back: that's why it is called redistributive taxation. If you want to do away with redistributive taxation then give an argument for that. It's not like Quebec where there is a prima facie case for separation based upon historical, cultural and linguistic differences.

Why shouldn't you pay tax like everyone else?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
Why shouldn't you pay tax like everyone else?

[Asher]

It's not that we shouldn't pay tax, but since we do pay so much, we should have an actual say in Ottawa.

[/Asher]

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Now how about you do something more than whine about how badly Alberta is treated by the rest of Canada. I suppose you think that Canada should let Alberta go, and then let you all back in 100 years when the oil is all gone and you are snivelling in the cold.

That's something I've heard before, too. Unfortunately for you, Alberta's economy is rapdily diversifying. 10 years ago, energy accounted for 40% of Alberta's GDP. Now it's 27% (source: BBC). Klein's been gung-ho about diversification, and it's working.

In 100 years by now, I don't see the problem.

To quote BBC:

Hi-tech firms continue to make Calgary their home, drawn by a youthful, well-educated population, and a high standard of living.

Ongoing diversification has helped the area weather economic downturns in individual industries, while making Calgary and Alberta a desirable destination for world leaders and cowboys alike.

I don't see the logic of your argument. You say Alberta pays too much in tax but receives very little back. So what, plenty of Canadians pay a lot in tax and receive very little back. The residents of Toronto pay far more in taxes and provide more benefits to the province of Ontario than they receive back (witness the declining state of the TTC and other public services). Should these individuals or the city of Toronto be allowed to declare themselves independent?

They should certainly be allowed to declare themselves independent, why would you hold a gun to their head if they want out? But is the political situation the same? Are their votes expendable in Toronto to the point of the provincial governments not even CAMPAIGNING in their city? Gee, for a philosophy professor you can't seem to set up a coherent retort.

The issue isn't that Alberta supports the rest of Canada. It's the feeling of being used, since Alberta continually supports the rest of Canada financially. It just feels like Canada comes and takes our money then ignores us until next year, where they take the money again.

We'd be more than happy to continue supporting Canada, if only Canada didn't do boneheaded things like the NEP, Kyoto, $1B-gun registries, continue supporting an archaic senate and a power structure in the federal government which shifts total and complete control of the entire government to central Canada...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

The issue isn't that Alberta supports the rest of Canada. It's the feeling of being used, since Alberta continually supports the rest of Canada financially. It just feels like Canada comes and takes our money then ignores us until next year, where they take the money again.

We'd be more than happy to continue supporting Canada, if only Canada didn't do boneheaded things like the NEP, Kyoto, $1B-gun registries, continue supporting an archaic senate and a power structure in the federal government which shifts total and complete control of the entire government to central Canada...

You haven't answered the question. Many people feel used by the government in many societies. It is an astonishing leap in logic from that to the notion that a minority should be able to dictate tax policy to the majority.

[Watches Asher skate out onto the thin ice]

In fact if, like many conservatives, you think that government is a bad thing then I suggest you campaign for a smaller government - by abolishing the provincial governments. I personally think that all local government should be scrapped, but that's another story.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
You haven't answered the question. Many people feel used by the government in many societies. It is an astonishing leap in logic from that to the notion that a minority should be able to dictate tax policy to the majority.

It's an astonishing leap in logic to go from "having a say" to "dictate", don't you think...

The Liberals didn't even campaign in Alberta in the latest federal election, okay? And in the current system in Canada, the Liberals have total, complete, and unchecked control over everything in the federal government.

Why do you think Kyoto was okayed, but only after the Liberals made SPECIFIC exceptions to ensure Ontario's huge auto industry isn't affected by it, but made no such provisions for any Alberta industries?

That's what I'm talking about -- just the general stupidities where Central Canada uses and abuses Alberta for their own gain, and any time someone brings it up they shrug and dismiss them as whiners...

[monkspider]

Asher's example has motivated me to start a campaign for Kansan independence, after all, the damn liberal democrats never campaigned down here and our state is at the will of evil liberal provinces such as New York.
KANSAS UBER ALLES!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

It's an astonishing leap in logic to go from "having a say" to "dictate", don't you think...

I wasn't aware that residents of Alberta were prohibited from voting.

The Liberals didn't even campaign in Alberta in the latest federal election, okay? And in the current system in Canada, the Liberals have total, complete, and unchecked control over everything in the federal government.

Yes they do, because they consistently win free and fair elections. If this point has any merit it is a call for proportional representation. We tried this in New Zealand and it means that the parties campaign everywhere since it is worth their time to do so. However, if I were a conservative I would oppose a move to PR since it tends to favour left leaning parties.

That's what I'm talking about -- just the general stupidities where Central Canada uses and abuses Alberta for their own gain, and any time someone brings it up they shrug and dismiss them as whiners...

Again - I want an answer to the question, no more evasive and irrelevant answers.

I see it this way.

1) Canada is a democracy.

2) Alberta is part of Canada.

3) The Liberals won a free and fair election in which each Albertan had the same number of votes as every other Canadian citizen (i.e. one).

4) This means, that because Canada is a democracy, the Liberals get to formulate policy and the Alliance and PC don't.

5) In a democracy people who disagree with the governments policies basically have to suck it up - the alternative is a breakdown of democracy (which is the least worst political system we know of).

6) The notion that individuals or polities can leave a democracy when they don't like the government's policies would be fatal to democracy if applied universally.

In other words - you need more than a tax gripe to make your separatist argument work.