Who Are the Real Heroes?

[Ramo]

If a war is unjust, refusing the fight, particularly if there are legal constraints, is heroic.

[David Floyd]

Well, since I'm ignored...

You are?

Have you gone here http://www.objector.org/ , or anywhere;

No.

or are you counting on just making your thoughts known here will suffice?

Suffice in what way? Suffice in the government's eyes? I don't really care what the government thinks. I'm not gonna fight, period, and I don't really care about the government.

The way you have this thread worded could be viewed as, at a minimum, insulting.
Just so you know, if you didn't know already; which I'm sure you probably did.

In what way is this thread insulting? If one takes this thread as an insult, then perhaps that person should take a good look at what they are doing and wonder if maybe they should be doing something else.

[SlowwHand]

It does matter what the government thinks, David.
You can say it doesn't all the way to jail, in a worst case scenario.
I'm just trying to help you do something in conjunction with your beliefs, so don't get all pissy with me.
If you're going to do something, do it right.
That's all I'm saying.

[David Floyd]

If you're going to do something, do it right.

Registering with a CO-type organization would imply that the government had the right to draft me if I was not a CO. This is not the case, so I'm not going to give credence to that claim.

[SlowwHand]

Well, I'm not going to sit and argue this point.
You keep the course you've set, and find out what rights the government has in life. To be specific, in your life.

[David Floyd]

I might find out what POWER the government has, but I already know what RIGHTS it has.

[SlowwHand]

As in, "might makes right". Yepper. Heard that. True.

[David Floyd]

You agree with the phrase "might makes right"?

Then what was wrong with what Hitler did to the Jews, or what Stalin did to the Ukrainians, for example?

[SlowwHand]

Come on. Degenerating to Hitler references. Kiss of death.
Your plan is fine.

[David Floyd]

Well, my "degenerating" is an obvious example of the fact that right does not make right. Unless, of course, you are saying it does - you have to take the whole package.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I said you are standing where the camera is, which means he's getting ready to shoot the woman and child in the picture as you watch. You're about 25 feet away, he's getting ready to pull the trigger. You have 2-3 seconds to act. I gave you a specific situation, so I want a specific answer.

Well Bory old buddy, I don't think I can get anymore specific. At least, it wouldn't serve a purpose. I could say that I lunged forward several feet, then several feet more, etc.
Maybe such a plan would work, maybe his bullet would be a dud (remember we peaceful types have the advantage of being the good guys), then again maybe not. Perhaps even on this particular occasion I would lose. It's for the most part, irrelevent.

It's nice to be idealistic, but your ideals are not practical. Situations where violence in self-defense is the only option are real, and it's an insult to the many people who have unwillingly had to defend themselves in such a way to suggest they just didn't try hard enough to be peaceful. Violent situations happen quickly, and there will be situations where there is no time or alternative to do anything else. Police officers encounter them all the time, and if they second-guessed the use of force when it was necessary, a lot of innocent people would end up dead.

As far as my ideals not being practical, you are right, to a degree. Evil is always easier than good. I could have chosen to go down the easy path, be a capitalist, make lots of money, live in luxory, and so forth, and I must admit, that it is always a temptation. So, my ideals aren't practical insofar as they are the more difficult path to choose, which is undoubtedly unattractive to most.
In regards to violent situations, if you were faced with a situation in which you were threatened with clearly lethal force and you responded with the absolute minimum ammount of force necessary to disarm the situation, then I don't think anyone would be anything but happy with you, even God. However, it's still not perfection. Speaking in terms of nothing but the absolute highest possible standards for humanity, the greatest thing one could do is attempt to elude death peacefully.

Total pacifism only would work in a world without evil, and that is not a world we live in or will live in anytime soon. Fantasy is nice, but in the real world, people will have to use force to defend themselves or others who are innocent against those who seem to harm them.

Boris, my dear friend. You're a soul whom God is infinitely pleased with. You stand for social justice, peace, tolerence, and you genuinely care about helping out others. In fact, I can personally vouch for your overabundance of generosity. There is more to reality than this life we currently live here on Earth. Therefore, the reality of the cold hard logic you speak of is only part of a much greater picture. Speaking purely in terms of terms of this greater scheme of things, total pacifism is not the fantastic pipe dream of fools that it may seem to be from your perspective, but conversely it is the only thing that is logical.

What may seem to be the ultimate purpose of man from such a limited perspective may be wealth, success, power and so forth. There is no room for the absolute altruism that I have discussed. But ultimately, acheiving such perfection is our only purpose, becoming one with divinity is the one true goal. So in this light, total pacifism can be seen as the only truly logical path to pursue, as it is the only one that can finally propel us toward out ultimate goal, that is, the only goal that really matters.

As far as the existence of evil precluding total pacifism. this isn't so. Jesus was able to acheive such a state, and certainly there was still evil in the world at that time. If one desires to reduce the evil in the world, he needs only to start witih himself. The example that one individual can make can literally change the world. So yes, there is evil in the world, but let's help eliminate it as much as we can.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Azazel
Morality and ethics are different things. I could dig up a website if you insist.

To some people they are, to others they aren't. I'll give it a rest now.

Originally posted by Azazel
I never said that all wars are just. I wanted to counter Floyd's point that dodging the draft is always the most moral thing to do in a situation when you're drafted, even the war is justified, and moral.

Well okay, carry on without me then

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by David Floyd
My vote is obvious (those who refuse, naturally).

Agreed. (Though I did consider Bananas. )

[MrFun]

First off, David posted the poll options unfairly, as a couple of others have already pointed out.

There are just wars and there are unjust wars. But since David only sees in black and white, he can't make any distinction with the shades of gray that he completely ignores.

In my opinion, just wars, along with the heroes who chose to fight, would include:

American Revolution (American soldiers and officers, who fought to preserve a freer government than what existed in Great Britain -- even if it began as a club for propertied white males, the Constitution would allow for past wrongs to be dealt with)

War of 1812 (American soldiers and officers, who fought to put an end to British impressment of American sailors into the Royal Navy, and demand for freedom to trade)

Civil War (Union soldiers and officers who gave their lives for preservation of a country that the Confederacy tried to destroy)

World War I (Allied soldiers and officers were the heroes here)

World War II (Allied soldiers and officers are the heroes here -- duh)



Unjust wars, where the United States was the anti-hero:

Mexican War

Spanish-American War (only way this war could have been just, is if Cuba and other new possessions were liberated by United States after the war)

Phillipino War

Vietnam War

These four wars were fought to conquer in the spirit of imperialism in the race against the other colonial powers such as Great Britain, France, Germany.

[SlowwHand]

I wasn't around during what I assume you to mean the "Mexican" war, but you realize that South Vietnam wanted us there, right?
You realize communists took over when we left?
You know about the evacuation? About boat people ?