Who Are the Real Heroes?

[Joseph]

I vote for those who fight, so those of you who are coward can be coward.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by David Floyd
That is not what would happen. Faced with invasion, people would certainly voluntarily donate to defense.

That is what happens, in this scenario. You don't think it hasn't happened before where people haven't acted with selfishness, even though it ultimately would be to their harm?

We'll just say that some do, but not enough to meet your war needs. Now, what do you do?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by monkspider


David, defending yourself is fine, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Blocking a punch, or running away are the best things to do.

If someone is attacking your girlfriend, with the intent to kill her, and you are standing too far away to intervene in time, but there is a gun and you would have a clear shot at the man without risking her, are you telling me you'd not take the shot to try and stop him from murdering her?

[David Floyd]

David, defending yourself is fine, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Blocking a punch, or running away are the best things to do.

What if you are cornered, or someone is trying to mug you? Personally, I see no problem with anything necessary to defend oneself, up to and including smashing their face into the street.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


If someone is attacking your girlfriend, with the intent to kill her, and you are standing too far away to intervene in time, but there is a gun and you would have a clear shot at the man without risking her, are you telling me you'd not take the shot to try and stop him from murdering her?

That's such a play on emotions Boris, and you know it!
There are always means to prevail without violence, even in the most extreme of situations such as this one. I could pull the old "what's that?" distraction trick, giving my girlfriend time to flee, or the old "your shoe laces are untied". Who knows? These examples may be silly, but there are truly infinite ways. Of course, the best thing to do, instead of waiting for these things to happen, is to try to build a world free of violence by encouraging love, peace, and understanding.

[monkspider]

The ultimate pattern to follow for these situations is Jesus. He was beaten, insulted, spitten upon, nailed to a cross yet he demonstrated nothing but love, righteousness and human maturity. He blesses His executioners with a boundless love as they brutally take His life, and He prays, "God, forgive these men!" They are children at play, unaware of the truth. "They know not what they do."

That level of maturity is THE paradigm that we should all strive for.

[Boris Godunov]

I seem to recall Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple with a whip. Was that non-violence?

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Gandhi was a hero, and he chose not to fight.

Mordecai Anielewicz was a hero, and he chose to fight.

So stop the generalizations.

Exactly. Are you a hero because you are wiling to give your life to defend your values...
Or are you a hero because you are willing to give your life to defend unpopular values...

[Richelieu]

What is a hero. Is there (can there be ) a universal definition ?

[JCG]

I think a true hero is someone who acts, with morality and fairness, on behalf of a just cause.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I seem to recall Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple with a whip. Was that non-violence?

Interesting point Boris, here is what happened.
6) The courts had been converted into marts of trade, and men were selling lambs and doves for offerings in sacrifice.
7) And Jesus called the priests and said,
Behold, for paltry gain you have sold out the temple of the Lord.
8) This house ordained for prayer is now a den of thieves. Can good and evil dwell together in the courts of God? I tell you, no.
9) And then he made a scourge of cords and drove the merchants out; he overturned their boards, and threw their money on the floor.
10) He opened up the cages of the captive birds, and cut the cords that bound the lambs, and set them free.

So essentially a temple had been turned into a market, so Jesus drove out the capitalists, overturned some tables, and let some animals free. It would appear that Jesus did find a nonviolent solution to this problem in that no one was harmed. Jesus was perhaps a bit stern with them in the same way a father might discipline a son. However, it was done with love, and ultimately helped these people learn an important lesson.

[Boris Godunov]

Driving people out of a building with a whip, overturning tables in the process, is an act of violence. If a father went after his son with a whip, I'm willing to bet you'd consider it violence.

Does the violence only apply to human beings? Or other living things, too?

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by JCG
I think a true hero is someone who acts, with morality and fairness, on behalf of a just cause.

I'd agree to that definition. Will others ?

[Boris Godunov]

Even biblical scholars believe there is a case for violence in self-defense:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html

THE BIBLICAL CASE FOR SELF-DEFENSE. It is noteworthy that the Bible records many accounts of fighting and warfare. The providence of God in war is exemplified by His name YHWH Sabaoth ("The LORD of hosts"--Exodus 12:41). God is portrayed as the omnipotent Warrior-Leader of the Israelites. God, the LORD of hosts, raised up warriors among the Israelites called the shophetim (savior-deliverers). Samson, Deborah, Gideon, and others were anointed by the Spirit of God to conduct war. The New Testament commends Old Testament warriors for their military acts of faith (Hebrews 11:30-40). Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints--nor even Jesus--are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.

Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Driving people out of a building with a whip, overturning tables in the process, is an act of violence.

Does the violence only apply to human beings? Or other living things, too?

Ideally, all living things. Unfortunatly, not killing that giant spider in the bathtub is a difficult test for even the best of us.
Since humans do have a certain degree of preeminence above other species, a certain background of killing animals purely for purposes of food is acceptable. So long as it is not done wastefully. Hunting for sport and so forth is immoral.

Back to the temple question, Jesus harmed no one, he simply disciplined them in a stern manner. Jesus didn't attack anyone with the whip. He freed some animals, which is always good. He overturned tables, which is harmless. And he drove them out of a temple. Consider this, if you came home one day, and there were some weird guys selling watches in your apartment, so you grabbed a bat and chased them out. That wouldn't be violent, since violence, by it's definition, implies harm to someone else, it would simply be stern. In short, Jesus' didn't harm anyone, he taught them an important lesson, and saved some animals.