Massive World Protests Tomorrow

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Go ahead and call people names but it doesn't help your cause and it doesn't make you look any better. The truth is in a democracy the best and most productive way to change the government's policies is to vote for people who have policies similar to your own. Colonial India wasn't a democracy so off course protests were they only thing which could effect change. Women's sufferage had a lot of rallies but in the end it was a democratic vote which made the changes reality.

Oh God..... "Women's sufferage"?

How do people who have no access to mass media and little money make themselves heard? They protest, that's what they do. They also lobby and do other things - both to appeal to the government and make the case to other citizens.

If you really think that voting is the best way to change the government's policies what happens when both parties have essentially the same policy that most people don't want, and when the government wants to do things everyone really hates when no election is imminent.

The facts are that public opinion in Europe is overwhelmingly against the war. There is no denying this fact. Nothwithstanding the opinions of their own citizens the leaders of all but two of these countries are pressing on regardless. Hence people are putting the government on notice by protesting - effectively saying - stop, or you've lost my vote. The idea is to compel the government to change its policy or in the case of Blair, its leader.

There, that's how protests work. And they do work.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There were almost a dozen different attempts to negotiate a peaceful exit from Kuwait by Iraq, other Arab states, the USSR, Europe, etc. The US refused them all. The US did everything it could to ensure that it could fight a war, sabotaging every peaceful effort. That war had little to do with Kuwait, and everything to do with proving American military power in the waning days of the USSR. The whole point of that war was to say to the world, "See how mighty we are, we are in control now."

Che: After the war General Swarzkoff (spell?) wrote a book on the subject which I read sometime back in 1994. Storm'n Norman said the reason the soviet peace intiative was shot down was because it allowed the Iraqis to keep control of hte desputed oil fields and didn't provide for an complete and unconditional withdrawal back to the pre-war border. Bush, Major, & all were very specific that it was complete with drawal to the pre-war border or nothing.

Saddam figured he could break the coalition by playing little games and then withdrawing from most of Kuwait while keeping the best oil fields. I'd say Bush Sr. had a pretty honest and straight forward policy.

[chequita guevara]

Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I'd say Bush Sr. had a pretty honest and straight forward policy.

You war-mongers are pretty damned gullable when it comes to our government, aren't you?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws.

Yeah, as the Democrats did in 2000 (and just recently in the South Dakota 2002 Senate Race).

[Dinner]

Agathon: I said working through the democratic process has a higher success rate then protesting not that protesting had never worked. Respond to what I actually said and not what you wish I said.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws.

Yeah, as the Democrats did in 2000 (and just recently in the South Dakota 2002 Senate Race).

I don't believe I named any specific parties. Both parties in this country are guilty of trying to get around the electorate. The Democrats are just as responsible for the fiasco in Florida as the Republicans. If Gore's people hadn't tried to limit the scope of the recount to just those counties where he thought he'd do best, then Republican vote tampering wouldn't have provided Bush with the margin of victory. Both of them screwed us. And yet the American people keep bending over and spreading their cheeks.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Agathon: I said working through the democratic process has a higher success rate then protesting not that protesting had never worked. Respond to what I actually said and not what you wish I said.

events gained by:
Protesting                                    Voting
Independence
unpropertied white men vote
women vote
Black people vote
ending slavery
ending Vietnam War



just to name a few

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't believe I named any specific parties.

Just getting a shot in .

The Democrats are just as responsible for the fiasco in Florida as the Republicans.

Don't forget given cigarettes to homeless people, all the shenanigans in Chicago every year, and the illegal keeping the St. Louis polls open for hours after everywhere else was closed.

Independence

There is a difference between protesting and revolution, che.

Black people vote

ending slavery

Now if you said ending Jim Crow... You remember that war that was started when a man named Lincoln was elected by people VOTING right? .

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Protesting
Independence
unpropertied white men vote
women vote
Black people vote
ending slavery
ending Vietnam War

Since when do wars count as protesting?

[Ned]

Hey, Che. Perhaps you have information on the demonstrations that others do not. Do you know who organized them? Even though I personally disagree with their positions, I was impressed by the degree of oranization it took to pull off this worldwide event. I hardly believe this was just concerned people worldwide, chatting on the internet, who suddenly decided to protest on Feb. 15.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Independence

There is a difference between protesting and revolution, che.

Revolution is the ultimate form of protest. The people throw out their government and install a new one.

Black people vote
ending slavery

Now if you said ending Jim Crow... You remember that war that was started when a man named Lincoln was elected by people VOTING right? .

There was quite a bit of protest against slavery, leading up to the war. The protest resulted in an election, which sparked a war. But if there had been no protests, the Republican party wouldn't have had a platform.

Ned, the organizations are varied by country. All I can say for sure is that there are four national organizations in the US who are cooperating and coordinating very closely, two of whom are lead by communist groups. Both through the communists' normal international contacts (most of our organizations are multinational) as well as the contacts that have been developing during the "anti-globalization" movement (I told you it was internationalist) it's not all that hard to do coordination like having the whole world protest on a single weekend. Then it's just up to local groups to try and get things going. Plus, it's a lot easier to keep informed with the internet. I wish we had it last time around.

Like I keep telling people, the left may have its differences, but when something big comes up, we overlook them for the sake of the cause. The biggest problem the movement is facing right now is a barage of red-baiting coming from the right-wing of the movement. There have been a number of very negative articles in the liberal/prgressive press about how the movement is being "hijacked" by the communists (without acknowledging that it was the communists who first organizaed the anti-war movement--in October, there were only two national groups).

Just this last week, Rabbi Lerner, who is associated with the liberal Jewish magazine Tikkun, claimed that he was being censored by ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), which is led by the Trotskyist group, Workers World. He claims he was invited to speak in San Francisco by United For Peace, and that Answer vetoed him because he was critical of their stance on Israel. Liberals jumped on the bandwagon to condemn ANSWER and bash the contribution that the left has been making, without bothering to check the facts. United For Peace denies that it ever invited Rabbi Lerner and ANSWER says the topic of his speaking never came up and that if UFP had put him forward, they couldn't have vetoed him (nor would they if they could). I know many fine comrades in WW, and I highly doubt they'd censor anyone. Even my anti-Leninist comrade in the Socialist Party, David McReynolds, former member of the War Resitors League, and one of the leaders of the Vietnam Anti-War movement (and also our 1980 and 1996 SP candidate for President) stood up for ANSWER. Now, the right picks up on the liberals red-baiting and is saying it too. (Never trust a liberal, they'll always stab you in the back.)

[Ned]

Che, thanks. And would you agree that the groups who put this together are primarily motivated to stop American imperialism rather than by any love for Saddam?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Revolution is the ultimate form of protest. The people throw out their government and install a new one.

I don't think revolution and protest are nearly that similar. Protest is part of the government process (which is why I think the original statement is more true than you believe). Revolution is the overthrow of that process.

I tend to believe that Protest and Voting are more related than Protest and Revolution.

There was quite a bit of protest against slavery, leading up to the war. The protest resulted in an election, which sparked a war. But if there had been no protests, the Republican party wouldn't have had a platform.

Untrue, the Northern Whigs were for a very long time anti-slavery, and it wasn't because of any protests. That is just how they were, and that is what caused the split in the party.

And the protest against slavery wasn't nearly that large. A few people that wrote treatises and ran an underground railraod do not really amount to a substantial protest. It was not nearly another Boston Tea Party .

[chequita guevara]

No one loves Saddam. In fact, we'd all pretty much agree that we'd like to see him just disappear, along with his top staff. I would not, however, say that we're united by a desire to stop US imperialism, though it's certainly one factor. I think the main factor uniting the movement is a hatred of war and the belief that if the world really tried, they could disarm Iraq without the use of military force.

Despite the US' muntions getting more and more accurate, there will still be an extremely high cost in civilian life. Tens of thousands died in the war against Yugoslavia, and that was just a bombing campaign. We're talking about sending people into highly populated cities, where civilians are bound to be hurt. Even those who flee will be at risk of exposure and disease.

I should note that the two other national anti-war networks are led by religious groups.