Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Velociryx]

Why does only hard work count?

What about having a good idea? What about innovation and creativity? What about taking more financial RISK? Those things count every bit as much as hard work, and are rewarded accordingly.

What I *hear* when I hear you saying these things is that you don't want to take those risks yourself, but you sure want the rewards that come with it.

And THAT is bull$hit.

If you want the rewards, take the risks. If you don't, then don't complain about your situation. It's all you.

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So you would sell it to someone who would "exploit" the workers....is that not tacit support of the very thing you say you're against?

What you are expecting of me is ridiculous. Like I said, I have a faimily to take care of.

Originally posted by Velociryx
And again, I'm not "stealing" a part of your labor, as I already explained.

Vel,

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


If you were a true communist, you would give it away to your workers. You're contradicting yourself.

No, that would make me a true fool.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Why does only hard work count?

What about having a good idea? What about innovation and creativity? What about taking more financial RISK? Those things count every bit as much as hard work, and are rewarded accordingly.

What I *hear* when I hear you saying these things is that you don't want to take those risks yourself, but you sure want the rewards that come with it.

And THAT is bull$hit.

If you want the rewards, take the risks. If you don't, then don't complain about your situation. It's all you.

-=Vel=-

You are very elitist. You want people who take risks and by chance win to be part of the elite class. I see no justification for that at all. It's total nonsense.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


Then why is it that the standard of living for the general population has been steadily increasing since the start of the Industrial Revolution?

1) Workers have formed unions which have afforded them greater negotiating power.

2) Imperialist nations have exploited the thrid world creating greater demand for labor.

[Velociryx]

Heh....several pages ago, you were the one who said that if you had the half million dollar machine, and the "time was right for revolution" you would give it to the workers....we're just holding you to it....

And as to your statement:

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that.

I could not disagree more.

Where do you think the big expensive machine CAME from? Did the god of Communist dogma just shoot it of his arse magically before you?

NO! The machine was built by someone else. It took time and money.

It was very expensive.

I bought it. I PAID FOR IT.

Without it, there would BE no shoe factory.

Why is that so hard to understand?

As to being elitist....if it is elitist to expect people to work for what they get, and if they want more, to work harder, smarter, and better, then yep. I'm an elitist.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Bill Gates is paid 500 times as much as me. Are you trying to tell me that he works 500 times harder than me. It's just the opposite. I work 500 times as hard as he does.

Yeah, I'm sure you work 500x as hard as Gates. Sure.

But even if you did, "hard work" isn't the only thing of value in the world. "Bright ideas" should be rewarded too.

Your assertion that rich people sit on their asses all day is starting to make sense to me. If that was true (ha!), then the only way they could get rich is by exploiting people. Ergo, rich people are exploiting you!

Ya.

Gotta go get lunch, bbl.

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK
Most people aren't entrepeneurs. Taken all the entrepeneurs together most of them fail. What is left is an elite class. And just because that select few has succeeded they should be part of a priviledged class. That's barbaric bull****.

You seem to have the mistaken notion that all entrepeneurs end up owning multinational corporations. The small business owner makes up the largest part of the economy, and is responsible for most of the jobs that are created. I would be considered an entrepeneur since I'm self-employed, even though I work alone, and don't really make a lot of money.

Bill Gates is paid 500 times as much as me. Are you trying to tell me that he works 500 times harder than me. It's just the opposite. I work 500 times as hard as he does.

As Vel has pointed out on many occasions, it's not about the work, it's about the risk. Work is a finite thing, we only have so much time in a day. But the amount of risk can be infinite.

It's also a question of responsibilty. Microsoft has alot of people and families that depend on their paycheck in order to pay their bills and live their lives. He's responsible for all those people in order to ensure that their lives aren't disrupted if the business fails and goes bankrupt. As an employee, you only have to worry about your particular task. Bill Gates has to worry about every single person he has working under him, as well as their families, on top of his responsibilities of actually running the company.

And like I said once before, which you seem to have conveniently ignored, people who set up their own business generally work twice as hard as their employees. They might sell it later and devote themselves to a life of ease and luxury, but while they're building the company, they work their butt off.
They have to, it won't be successful otherwise.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
I think this has already been said, but what the hell, it needs to be repeated:

Economics is not a zero-sum gain. My gettting richer does not necessarily make you poorer. If economics was zero-sum, the Industrial Revolution would never have been able to happen, or if it did, it would mean that the capitalists got insanely rich and the workers had to work naked and in caves, eventually starving to death. AND THAT, MY FRIEND, DID NOT HAPPEN!

You can create wealth, it's not impossible. It happens every day around you. There is no limit on the wealth capable of being created by those with determination and ingenuity.

Example: On day one, everyone has X shoes. This day each person makes one more shoe. At the end of the day, everyone has X + 1 shoe.

All are "wealthier."

The argument that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in invalid if the poor actually get richer, which they do in capitalist societies.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Heh....several pages ago, you were the one who said that if you had the half million dollar machine, and the "time was right for revolution" you would give it to the workers....we're just holding you to it....

And I don't recall saying I would give it up before then.

Originally posted by Velociryx
And as to your statement:

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that.

I could not disagree more.

Where do you think the big expensive machine CAME from? Did the god of Communist dogma just shoot it of his arse magically before you?

NO! The machine was built by someone else. It took time and money.

It was very expensive.

I bought it. I PAID FOR IT.

Without it, there would BE no shoe factory.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You didn't neccessarily build it. Some one else did. Regardless, it shouldn't be used to exploit people.

Originally posted by Velociryx


As to being elitist....if it is elitist to expect people to work for what they get, and if they want more, to work harder, smarter, and better, then yep. I'm an elitist.

-=Vel=-

You're not listening to yourself. You want people to draw profit. That's not working for what you get.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor.

You need capital in order to purchase the machinery, buildings and other infrastucture in order for there to be any production in the first place.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


You need capital in order to purchase the machinery, buildings and other infrastucture in order for there to be any production in the first place.

You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


No, that would make me a true fool.

How, by living by your principles? You condemn others yet you don't want to put your own money in your mouth. How hypocritical is that? Your whole philosophy is built on a house of cards, your ideals only apply when it's convenient for you and have no basis in fact. If you truly believed in what you are promoting, then you wouldn't even hesitate to apply them, even hypothetically.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by DuncanK


You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

Right, you can get people to build things by using the whip. Are you a pop-rush building fan in Civ3?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Arrian


Yeah, I'm sure you work 500x as hard as Gates. Sure.

But even if you did, "hard work" isn't the only thing of value in the world. "Bright ideas" should be rewarded too.

Your assertion that rich people sit on their asses all day is starting to make sense to me. If that was true (ha!), then the only way they could get rich is by exploiting people. Ergo, rich people are exploiting you!

Ya.

Gotta go get lunch, bbl.

-Arrian

I have no idea why you don't believe that rich people don't work as hard as poor people, I sort of think that you might have a lot of money. I think if you tried to support yourself and a family with an unskilled labor job then you would understand that better.