Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK

2) Imperialist nations have exploited the thrid world creating greater demand for labor.

Man that is so cliche! Can't you do better than that? The fact remains Duncan, that under capitalism all these years, decades, our standard of living has increased, but the communist system has yet to come up one successful and comparable example.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


Right, you can get people to build things by using the whip. Are you a pop-rush building fan in Civ3?

Do you understand communism or are you just being ridiculous?

[Velociryx]

Private ownership adds nothing.

Duncan, if you believe that, then your mission for today should be to give your car away (take the bus, or some other form of public transportation)

Rent your clothes, or come up with some co-op clothing sharing system with some of your neighbors.

Unlock your doors and put a sign out front of your house, indicating that anyone who wants to can move in with you....since it doesn't really "mean anything" that you're the one paying the mortgage.

'k?

But you won't do any of that, will you?

Why not?

Would that not be living by the principles you believe in?

Question for you, just as an aside:

Let's suppose for a moment that you had a table saw (which you didn't make yourself, but bought from some evil capitalist pig who exploited his poor, poor workers by paying them fifteen bucks an hour, but that's beside the point for this example).

I want to build a house, but don't have a saw. I could buy one myself (from that same, evil, capitalist dog) or I could rent yours for cheaper.

If you take money from me for borrowing the saw, are you exploiting me?

You are profiting from owning the capital, even though you are not doing any work! Would that be somehow "unfair?"

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

And who's going to pay the wages of the people that build the machine you need in order to start your own production? Do you think that they should jusst do it for free, tell their families that they can't eat for awhile because you really, really need that machine, but your aren't willing to pay for it. How does that work in your peculiar world?

[Velociryx]

Also, your plan pre-supposes that everyone knows how to do everything. This has never been the case.

"they can just build it."

But not if they don't know HOW!

What then? Should they just starve, rather than let someone assume the risk and buy what they cannot make?

You are the one being rediculous, my friend. Calling people elitist for believing that if you want something, you should work for it....::shakes head in amazement::

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


Man that is so cliche! Can't you do better than that? The fact remains Duncan, that under capitalism all these years, decades, our standard of living has increased, but the communist system has yet to come up one successful and comparable example.

Oh, now you don't believe in Imperialism. You are moving more to the right as we speak

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


I have no idea why you don't believe that rich people don't work as hard as poor people, I sort of think that you might have a lot of money. I think if you tried to support yourself and a family with an unskilled labor job then you would understand that better.

Yeah right, I'm just loaded.

For the last two years and a half years. I've barely been living above the poverty line, even though I've been self-employed. I'm just now reaching the point that I earn as much as someone working for $12/hr CAN. Just subtract 40% for a US equivalent. And yes I've worked at unskilled jobs and tried to get by, and also had periods of being on welfare and unable to find work. That's why I wanted to become self-employed, I can trust myself more than I can trust others for my livelihood.

And though I can't really say that I've personally busted my butt, I've known other people that have set out to run their own businesses. I've seen how hard they work, the sacrifices and compromises that they have to make. You should try working a job at some Mom and Pop business sometime and just watch how much effort they have to put into their business in order to keep it running and successful.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


Yeah right, I'm just loaded.

For the last two years and a half years. I've barely been living above the poverty line, even though I've been self-employed. I'm just now reaching the point that I earn as much as someone working for $12/hr CAN. Just subtract 40% for a US equivalent. And yes I've worked at unskilled jobs and tried to get by, and also had periods of being on welfare and unable to find work. That's why I wanted to become self-employed, I can trust myself more than I can trust others for my livelihood.

And though I can't really say that I've personally busted my butt, I've known other people that have set out to run their own businesses. I've seen how hard they work, the sacrifices and compromises that they have to make. You should try working a job at some Mom and Pop business sometime and just watch how much effort they have to put into their business in order to keep it running and successful.

And I never said you were rich. As far as I'm concerned you earn everything you have. I'm not really talking about regular people who start up a small business because that's what they want to do. I'm talking about the truly elite class of people who rule America and exploit the working class.

[Ned]

In order for a third world worker to build an circuit board, for example, he or she needs the board, the circuits, assembly equipment, a supply pipeline in and a pipeline out and of course, know how.

The Imperialist capitalist dog supplies everything but the labor.

Is the Imperialist capitalist dog entitled to nothing for his contribution?

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Oh, now you don't believe in Imperialism. You are moving more to the right as we speak

There you go again twisting things people say in order to avoid dealing with the issue. Imperialism has never entered into the discussion, not once, nada. If you can't come up with any reasonable arguments that support your view, then you should simply just give up.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
"they can just build it."

But not if they don't know HOW!

In almost all cases I expect. It is the people who built and designed the machines. Bill Gates doesn't design and build his own machines. Even if he did it gives him no right to be a capitalist.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK
I'm not really talking about regular people who start up a small business because that's what they want to do.

BUT THAT'S CAPITALISM! You can't have it both ways Duncan, either the state owns everything, or the people can make the choices on their own.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned
In order for a third world worker to build an circuit board, for example, he or she needs the board, the circuits, assembly equipment, a supply pipeline in and a pipeline out and of course, know how.

The Imperialist capitalist dog supplies everything but the labor.

Is the Imperialist capitalist dog entitled to nothing for his contribution?

The workers in the Imperialist nation certainly desreve something, but not a greater share.

[Velociryx]

See how it goes Ned? We're back to the 10k investment thing.

The evil capitalists supply *everything* All the pieces, AND a place to put them together, and all they ask is that the laborers actually put the pieces they're given together.

But the split has to be fifty fifty or it's not "fair."



-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


BUT THAT'S CAPITALISM! You can't have it both ways Duncan, either the state owns everything, or the people can make the choices on their own.

You generalize entirely too much. We are not a bunch of small business owners who simply work for ourselves. You maybe, but the bulk of us aren't. Furthermore, its a fanatasy to picture capitalism in that way. You're talking precommercial revolution. Capitalism will never go back to those early stages.

errr.. pre-industrial revolution i think