Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx


Thanks Willem!



-=Vel=-

How many times does the guy have to admit he can't refute an argument before he sees that his ideals aren't practical?

[Arrian]

I see you fellas have continued to fight the good fight.

Well done. Duncan, having reviewed the last several pages in this thread, it appears to me that you want something for nothing, and that's the basis for your ideology. What can I say to that besides... I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

-Arrian, fish hook maker & future King of the world!

[Velociryx]

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian
I see you fellas have continued to fight the good fight.

Well I realize I'm probably wasting my time, but I'm to pig-headed to give up.

Having once been a communist myself, I hate to see someone else waste their energy.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Velociryx


-=Vel=-

[Mr. Burns voice] Excellent [/Mr. Burns voice]

Willem,

I hear ya. OT debates are pretty much always futile, yet we keep posting, don't we?

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian
Willem,

I hear ya. OT debates are pretty much always futile, yet we keep posting, don't we?

-Arrian

Well it's still a learning experience. It helps me clarify my own views tring to counter someone else's arguments. For instance, until I got involved in this discussion, I was firmly convinced that I was a socialist. Now I realize that I'm just a left of center Liberal.

[Arrian]

Very true. In order to defend a position, you have to really examine that position.

It's similar to teaching - if I had to help out a fellow student (high school, college, whatever) for an upcoming test, I always found that I did better on the test, because in the process of teaching the fellow student what he/she needed to know, I had to make sure I knew it. My best friend is a teacher up near Boston, and he is just brimming with knowledge on Ancient Egypt these days, because that's what he's doing with his kids.

-Arrian

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Your logic is now working against your argument with the following phrase:

I've heard about those things. I'm not really interested in running a business. I'm sure a lot of people aren't. Some people wouldn't be much good at it. Does that mean they deserve less?

Are you not arguing your position from the vantage point that all workers should own what they produce? And if so, does that not, BY DEFINITION, make all workers business owners?

Your argument, is therefore, too full of holes to sustain itself. It is a sinking ship, my friend.

-=Vel=-

AH HA! Good Morning Vel. Nice try. I'm glad I went to sleep before answering this one, because you seem to be trying to corner me here.

No, I think I specified that I would not like to run a business, not that I didn't want to own one. If you don't want yours anymore I'll take it

[Velociryx]

Ohhhhh, this is getting good!

So....you don't want to actually work at *running* the business....you just want to own it.....and if the business is to continue operating (since you already said that you don't want to take the time and effort to run it, you will, no doubt, need to hire and "exploit" someone else in order to keep it going....right?)

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor


Economics is not a zero-sum gain. My gettting richer does not necessarily make you poorer.

No it's not a zero-sum game. But in capitalism you may get richer while I get poorer by the simple fact that I work for you and you take part of my labor. I'm left with only a portion of it.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx


Ohhhhh, this is getting good!

So....you don't want to actually work at *running* the business....you just want to own it.....and if the business is to continue operating (since you already said that you don't want to take the time and effort to run it, you will, no doubt, need to hire and "exploit" someone else in order to keep it going....right?)

-=Vel=-

No, I would sell it

I don't know. You guys are making me out to be some strange person who sits around in his underware waiting for the revolution. I'm playing the game just like everyong else. I have a family to support.

[Velociryx]

So you would sell it to someone who would "exploit" the workers....is that not tacit support of the very thing you say you're against?

And again, I'm not "stealing" a part of your labor, as I already explained.

Before you were even in the picture, I made a BIG investment and took a big risk buy buying the machine and building the factory. That's my portion of the investment. Your portion of the investment is the time spent making shoes.

My portion is bigger, so my portion of the rewards is bigger. Same principles as was used in our joint 10k investment. Absolutely no difference.

And as I said earlier, if it makes you "feel better" about it, then look at it this way. You DO own everything you make at the ol' shoe factory....it's just that, since you used a piece of equipment (my machine) that you do not own, I get a piece of that action. Specifically, I get to buy all your shoes made with my machine.

We automate this process for simplicity, and call it your paycheck....

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


The chances are that Capitalist B is not being exploited because he's off trying to get another idea of his off the ground. Entrepeneurs don't generally take defeat easily, if they fail they'll dust themselves off and try again, maybe with some other product. That's what made them entrepeneurs in the first place.

Why is it always about the entrepeneurs? It's a very nice word, but we aren't all entrepenuers, and I don't think people here will be fooled by the romantic notion of the term.

Most people aren't entrepeneurs. Taken all the entrepeneurs together most of them fail. What is left is an elite class. And just because that select few has succeeded they should be part of a priviledged class. That's barbaric bull****.

Originally posted by Willem
Now you've been talking alot about capitalism exploiting workers, but what about communism? If I work my butt off and yet I still get paid the same amount as the guy next to me that only does half what I do, is that not exploitation? What about the politburo driving around in a limousine and attending fancy state dinners? Why should my labour be applied to his luxurious lifestyle, while I'm stuck with just an average wage, with no hope of improving my situation?

Bill Gates is paid 500 times as much as me. Are you trying to tell me that he works 500 times harder than me. It's just the opposite. I work 500 times as hard as he does.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK
But in capitalism you may get richer while I get poorer by the simple fact that I work for you and you take part of my labor.

Then why is it that the standard of living for the general population has been steadily increasing since the start of the Industrial Revolution? By your definition the system should have collapsed a long time ago, since there would no longer be anyone that can afford to buy the products the capitalist produces. They'd all have been exploited to the point that they have nothing left to spare and are living in abject poverty.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


No, I would sell it

If you were a true communist, you would give it away to your workers. You're contradicting yourself.