Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In almost every case, there was a direct cause of their current situation, and it was not "capitalsim." It was usually one or more of the following: Lack of understanding of the economy, lack of understanding of money, lack of understanding of budgeting, living beyond their means, addiction of one form or another (the lotto, smoking, alcahol, drugs, other), or simple laziness.

I have a lot of objections to your long post, but I'll just address this one.

You don't seem to go very far away from your inner circle and look at how the world truly is. You tend to look around your immediate surroundings and make judgements about the world with that as your model.

The reasons that you are giving for capitalism not working for people tend to only apply to those with priviledge. Sure there are underpriviledged people who are addicted to drugs and so on, but thats not the only thing that keeps them down. Lack of opportunity also keeps them down. On the other hand the only thing that could ruin a priviledged person are faults within themselves.

Oh, btw. Did you know that banks turn people down for loans. Maybe you should go hang out at a bank and wait for a poor person to go in there and ask for a loan. I can tell you right now. They don't get it.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
As to the fish hook question - That's an easy one. Without fish hooks, you catch maybe three fish a day. With them, you see your catch triple.

Would you not say that is a tangible, *valuable* benefit?

And should not Arrian's, clearly valuable contribution be rewarded? What's wrong with that? He TRIPLED your catch! If that is exploitative, then I'm all for being exploited!

-=Vel=-

That's beside the point. You haven't explained how making fish hooks is better than fishing. Everybody is contributing. I personally would admire him for being so smart, and I might give him a better birthday present than the rest of you, but I'll be damned if I'll let him rule the world.

[Az]

I wonder how much sex, drugs and rock and roll exists in North Korea?

I wonder how much of that existed in Pinochet's Chile.

[Velociryx]

They don't get denied the loan because they are poor, they get denied the loan because they have no collateral. Poor people can GET collateral, and they can (and do, on a daily basis) get loans. I work for a bank right now....and am in a position to know....

-=Vel=-
PS: And yep....I base my world view largely on my surroundings. It just happens that I work at a bank, and "my surroundings" include a whoooooole lotta people....

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel

You took this from you ass, pardon my french.

Why not have to bussinesses, self-run, and economically independent, that would belong to the government/their respective workers?

More nonsense. All businesses in capitalist systems are self-run. The government part is the the problem. Once the government owns a business, it cannot allow competition, can it? Even if the business has multiple managers - it will be treated as one business with inputs and outputs centrally controlled.

A monopoly.

Think of the post office.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
They don't get denied the loan because they are poor, they get denied the loan because they have no collateral. Poor people can GET collateral, and they can (and do, on a daily basis) get loans. I work for a bank right now....and am in a position to know....

-=Vel=-
PS: And yep....I base my world view largely on my surroundings. It just happens that I work at a bank, and "my surroundings" include a whoooooole lotta people....

Do you realize what you are saying. You just admited that people can't get a loan unless they have collateral. Poor people don't have collateral and they have a MUCH ..... MUCH ...... MUCH harder time gettting it because they do not have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Why the hell is this all fair?

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Lenin was not a Marxist. He came up with his own theories to justify his actions. Marx never predicted that an underdeveloped country would have a socialist revolution. Marx never justified a police state.

It's irrelevant, his goal was a socialist state, and his was just like all the other failed attempts at good intentions. The system has inherent flaws that won't allow it to succeed for very long. Sooner or later it will either collapse, as in the Soviet case, or gradually switch to a more capitalistic society as in China.

[Az]

The system has inherent flaws that won't allow it to succeed for vey long.

what are the "inherent flaws" of socialism, again? you didn't prove anything in the entire thread, so this claim is NULL.

[Velociryx]

Yep...I realize full well what I am saying. And I said it before, too. People have different levels of opportunity in this country, but all HAVE opportunities for advancement. I see it every day. I see it in action. More later....gotta take the cat to the vet.

-=Vel=-

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel

what are the "inherent flaws" of socialism, again? you didn't prove anything in the entire thread, so this claim is NULL.

Azazel, maybe he didn't, but I did. It is government control.

[Az]

More nonsense. All businesses in capitalist systems are self-run. The government part is the the problem. Once the government owns a business, it cannot allow competition, can it? Even if the business has multiple managers - it will be treated as one business with inputs and outputs centrally controlled.

that's not true. You're presuming your way through the argument.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Ridiculous. I have no capital. I can't get a loan from the bank. I have no skills. What business can I start? Mowing lawns? Sure Willem. Got anymore propaganda you want to lay on us?

Hey if I can do it anyone can, believe me. Credit is rather easy to come by these days; last summer I ended up with a $3500 credit card simply for walking into a store and mentioning that I was self-employed. At half the interest of the other cards. All you really need is the right idea, and the initiative, and the money will come around. It's just a matter of building up trust with your bank.

[Ned]

Let's then assume no government control. Businesses that can raise capital freely will soon dominate businesses that cannot. If a state outlaws the private raising of capitlal, bingo, we are back to barbed wire as the workers flee.

[Az]

Willem, I have no doubt in the fact that everyone can start a bussiness.

My problem is that there is a presumption that greed and the fear of being hungry are the only two ways to make a person productive and innovative.

[Ned]

Azazel, I gave you Genghis Khan. He was motivated by lust - for killing and raping.