Re-Shaping the landscape in the wake of the Cold War

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Ned

.

I agree, Vel, the cause is just and is worth fighting for. Mom, apple pie and the American Way.

It is the right to live or not to live the american way that should be the goal. People don't want to live in there own version of america, they just want to be free. (which is not just an american value and nor is america the only place where it can be found).

[Willem]

Duncan:

You can talk all you want to, but you're not going to convince anyone of your socialist utopia. We've all seen enough failed attempts at your ideal society to know that it's just not going to work. No one's ever going to take that approach seriously anymore, the revolution is over. Live with it, get over it, it ain't going to happen, especially on a world wide level.

The best you're ever going to expect is a Social Democracy, along the lines of what we in Canada and some countries in Europe are tinkering with. But though these societies incorporate elements of socialism, they're still essentially capitalist systems. It's not a perfect system, but history has shown that it works, unlike Communism.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why are you supporting the exploitation of the workers by indulging in the crass consumerism of both buying an internet connection and a computer, DuncanK?

Oh, so it's all my fault now?

I'm not some revolutionary freak DinoDoc. I'm not just sitting around waiting for the revolution while life passes me by. I don't expect you to either. I'm just having a nice debate here.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem
Duncan:

You can talk all you want to, but you're not going to convince anyone of your socialist utopia. We've all seen enough failed attempts at your ideal society to know that it's just not going to work. No one's ever going to take that approach seriously anymore, the revolution is over. Live with it, get over it, it ain't going to happen, especially on a world wide level.

The best you're ever going to expect is a Social Democracy, along the lines of what we in Canada and some countries in Europe are tinkering with. But though these societies incorporate elements of socialism, they're still essentially capitalist systems. It's not a perfect system, but history has shown that it works, unlike Communism.

Don't be so sure. You have the seeds of knowledge now. The next depression you will start thinking seriously about a better alternative, especially if your business fails.

[Arrian]

DuncanK,

Anyone who understands how capitalism works understands the boom/bust cycle. It's a part of the system. If government ever figures out that it should save just as private citizens do (during boom, build a surplus, during bust, use said surplus to assist those who lose their jobs), we can do a lot to smooth out the ups & downs.

I'd prefer those ups & downs, though, to communism (a big fat down).

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Don't be so sure. You have the seeds of knowledge now. The next depression you will start thinking seriously about a better alternative, especially if your business fails.

I've already told you, I used to think very much like you do now. What makes you think that I will go back to that belief after already rejecting it is as implausible and impractical? In fact, until we started getting into this discussion, I seriously considered myself a socialist. Now I realize that I'm just a Liberal.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Arrian
DuncanK,

Anyone who understands how capitalism works understands the boom/bust cycle. It's a part of the system. If government ever figures out that it should save just as private citizens do (during boom, build a surplus, during bust, use said surplus to assist those who lose their jobs), we can do a lot to smooth out the ups & downs.

I'd prefer those ups & downs, though, to communism (a big fat down).

-Arrian

The thing is that some idiot like Bush isn't even going to use deficit spending until its too late. Then he's only going to use deficits that are too small. By the time he gets his head out of his ass people will be sick of it.

[Arrian]

Deficit spending... I'm not a big fan. I'd rather have a fiscally conservative government that saved money for the rainy day so that it didn't have to go into deeper and deeper debt everytime there was an economic downturn, disaster, war, etc.

Right now, government will spend as much money as it can get its hands on. 300 billion in the red? No problem! We're the government!

During the boom period of the 90s, the government should have been saving money (but of course, advocating that would get you labelled an evil conservative who doesn't care about the poor) so that it could then use it now when times are a bit tough.

But that's just my opinion. I only took a few Econ courses before dumping that major for History, so I concede I could be way off-base about the economics of government. Still, I don't like the idea of spending money you don't have.

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK

The thing is that some idiot like Bush isn't even going to use deficit spending until its too late. Then he's only going to use deficits that are too small. By the time he gets his head out of his ass people will be sick of it.

Duncan, Duncan, Duncan, the US is already in deficit spending, to the tune of some $300 billion this year I believe. They have been for over a year now in fact. Granted most of that is for the military and will have little impact on the overall economy, but that just represents the failure of a leader, not the system.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian
During the boom period of the 90s, the government should have been saving money (but of course, advocating that would get you labelled an evil conservative who doesn't care about the poor) so that it could then use it now when times are a bit tough.

But you also have to deal with the underlying debt as well. It wouldn't make very much sense to horde a bunch of money when you're also paying out a huge amount in interest payments. If your government was completely debt free, your idea would make a lot more sense, but you currently owe billions, maybe trillions, to various financial institutions.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


Duncan, Duncan, Duncan, the US is already in deficit spending, to the tune of some $300 billion this year I believe. They have been for over a year now in fact. Granted most of that is for the military and will have little impact on the overall economy, but that just represents the failure of a leader, not the system.

A) Those aren't planned deficits. They are mostly the result of economy downturn. There is a diference. These kinds of deficits are an effect, not a cause.

B) The failure of the leader is the failure of the system. A Democrat whould be just as inept. Look at FDR. When the Depression hit he tried to ballance the budget.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


But you also have to deal with the underlying debt as well. It wouldn't make very much sense to horde a bunch of money when you're also paying out a huge amount in interest payments. If your government was completely debt free, your idea would make a lot more sense, but you currently owe billions, maybe trillions, to various financial institutions.

Read my post in the current deficits thread.

[Arrian]

Oh, I wasn't even gonna touch the national debt issue, but since you brought it up, I totally agree. Economists (at least those who like Keynes) don't seem to, though.

I personally hate that a large percentage of my tax dollars go toward debt service (what is it 15-20%?). I want that paid down. Trouble is, no one will get elected by saying "right, for decades now we've spend beyond our means, and now must pay it back."

-Arrian

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Arrian
But that's just my opinion. I only took a few Econ courses before dumping that major for History, so I concede I could be way off-base about the economics of government. Still, I don't like the idea of spending money you don't have.

-Arrian

History is good, just don't drop ecnomics. History wont make any sense without it.

[Main_Brain]

Keynes=Bad