Why doesn't the average American understand the concept of haggling?

[Willem]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

Now you're just being pedantic, but I'm glad you had the good grace to back down over the animal comment...

No I'm not, I'm just applying your own logic to it's extreme. And I still think your comments are paternalistic.

"Let's keep the primitive savages impoverished and ignorant. It's for their own good you know, and we wealthy Westerners should know."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the Balinese government chose to develop their tourism industry, and that the people chose to abandon their old ways of life? Or are you suggesting that your country should determine their future, for their own sake of course. After all they can't possibly understand what's best for themselves, they aren't enlightened like the British are.

PS You're obviously not Scottish, they would never come across with such an air of blatant superiority. They understand what it's like being on the receiving end. As do we Canadians.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Willem
No I'm not, I'm just applying your own logic to it's extreme. And I still think your comments are paternalistic.

"Let's keep the primitive savages impoverished and ignorant. It's for their own good you know, and we wealthy Westerners should know."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the Balinese government chose to develop their tourism industry, and that the people chose to abandon their old ways of life? Or are you suggesting that your country should determine their future, for their own sake of course. After all they can't possibly understand what's best for themselves, they aren't enlightened like the British are.

My comments are paternalistic??? Tell that to the americans who want to pay over the odds for stuff because 'the people are poor'...

That's not what I'm saying and you know it. Just because you can't counter the main argument about haggling, you seek to distort my words in an side subject.

The Indonesian government can do what it likes, it's just that by putting all it's eggs in one basket, it has destabilised the Balinese ability to fend for themselves.

I am vindicated in saying that the shifting tides of tourism brought them riches, just as it has their (current) downfall. It's a perfectly safe place to visit, but the whims of tourists have cast it as a pariah destination.

Now stick to the subject.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
So those of you who don't haggle don't mind being ripped off in countries where haggling is a normal process.

Irrelevant for me, I do not use my time traveling to buy useless crap.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Ah well, Capitalism is the law of the jungle - even nature espouses survival of the fittest, you can't expect to fight against nature and win...

I don't know why you guys believe in this survival of the fittest crap. Do you even look around you to see the morons who make it to the top?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Irrelevant for me, I do not use my time traveling to buy useless crap.

Ah, so these entire countries are made up of nothing but 'useless crap'...

Why travel in the first place then?

Or even post in this thread!

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by DuncanK
I don't know why you guys believe in this survival of the fittest crap. Do you even look around you to see the morons who make it to the top?

Great, isn't it?

Long live Capitalism!

[Dinner]

I've spent alot of time over seas so I've gotten used to haggling. You have to know when and where it is appropraite; most larger "westernized" establishments have a no haggle price while the smaller shops and street venders consider it impolite not to haggle. Besides sometimes it's fun to brow beat the last penny out of the guy. They'll never sell it for a lose, dispite what ever he tells you, so if he agrees to a price he's making money.

BTW In the USA it is allowable to haggle over big ticket items like automobiles, realestate, jewelry, and electronics. At most other times haggling is considered to be socially unexceptable so people avoid because they don't want to appear lower class. Besides one look at the news paper and you'll see a dozen different ads for the same merchendise so you can easy compare and buy the lowest price without haggling.

[Willem]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

The Indonesian government can do what it likes, it's just that by putting all it's eggs in one basket, it has destabilised the Balinese ability to fend for themselves.

But that's not necessarily the fault of tourism is it? That's just short-sighted planning on the part of the government. But then, how could they possibly have predicted a terrorist bomb going off and devastating the industry? Who knows, maybe in the long run it will be the best thing that ever happened to them, since now they can clearly see the value of diversifying their economy.

As for your argument about haggling, so what? I frankly don't understand why you're trying to create such an issue, it's so petty and insignifigant as to be almost ludicrous! You asked once if it's a cultural thing, and obviously it is. So why is it such a problem with you when North Americans are simply operating within their cultural norms? We don't have a problem with you people when you insist on your tea time, or do you feel that we should completely alter our behaviour to appeal to the locals.

Like I said before, most Canadians don't even think about it, it's just not done here. Only cheapskates and tightwads engage in that type of activity, and most people would get impatient and annoyed very quickly if someone were to start in. And why should you worry about whether we allow ourselves to be ripped off when we simply don't care?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem
We don't have a problem with you people when you insist on your tea time, or do you feel that we should completely alter our behaviour to appeal to the locals.

I've never heard a Canadian talk to a Brit like that.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Willem
But that's not necessarily the fault of tourism is it? That's just short-sighted planning on the part of the government. But then, how could they possibly have predicted a terrorist bomb going off and devastating the industry? Who knows, maybe in the long run it will be the best thing that ever happened to them, since now they can clearly see the value of diversifying their economy.

If you knew anything about Indonesian internal politics, frankly it stood a high likelihood of happening for quite a while. And yes, you're right about diversification thanks for agreeing with me.

As for your argument about haggling, so what? I frankly don't understand why you're trying to create such an issue, it's so petty and insignifigant as to be almost ludicrous! You asked once if it's a cultural thing, and obviously it is. So why is it such a problem with you when North Americans are simply operating within their cultural norms?

It's not petty, for a whole multitude of reason brought up - I'm sure if most americans found out they were paying massively above the odds and being fleeced, they'd have something to say about it - but then ignorance is bliss...

We don't have a problem with you people when you insist on your tea time, or do you feel that we should completely alter our behaviour to appeal to the locals.

Of course not, but at the same time you should respect the culture of the country you're visiting, is that too much to ask? Why travel if the first thing you do when you touch down is seek comfort in a Dunkin' Donuts?

Like I said before, most Canadians don't even think about it, it's just not done here. Only cheapskates and tightwads engage in that type of activity, and most people would get impatient and annoyed very quickly if someone were to start in. And why should you worry about whether we allow ourselves to be ripped off when we simply don't care?

Of course it's not done in a western country, we don't do it here either.

As for in a country where it is expected, that is different. Only ignorant morons waste their money knowingly - or even worse unknowingly. Personally I don't have a problem with it, it's their money they can be stupid if they like.

But I tell you what, you should has seen the look in that guys face at the hotel when he found out how much we were paying...

[DinoDoc]

MOBIUS: We don't really care about how much people who don't haggle inflates your prices and turns haggling into a chore for you.

[Sava]

Okay, now that I'm calm from laughing at DD's assertion that American business dealings are fair, I can effectively say that haggling is annoying and a waste of time. I understand its a part of many cultures (mostly third world), but it's my opinion that most of haggling comes from necessity. In those countries, most haggling occurs between people of the poorer sects of their respective societies. When people are socialized and such to haggle and then move to another country; it's only natural that they would be used to that custom. In business terms, haggling is a way for the market to adjust itself. But in America, because everything is mass-produced, most market prices are set and aren't open to negotiation unless someone is going to buy in bulk. But when you have comodities like houses, property, and cars; there is room for haggling because the value of the item in question is open to interpretation.

[Willem]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
It's not petty, for a whole multitude of reason brought up - I'm sure if most americans found out they were paying massively above the odds and being fleeced, they'd have something to say about it - but then ignorance is bliss...

Like I said once before, most North Americans wouldn't feel like they've had a good time unless they've spent alot of money, it gives them bragging rights when they get home. It's a matter of social prestige for them. The more they can afford to spend on a vacation the more affluent they are, or at least appear to be in the eyes of their peers. I'm not saying I agree with this attitude, but it's part of our cultural psyche.

From my own PoV, haggling is just a waste of time that could be better spent on seeing the sites, and engaing in real conversations with the locals that don't revolve around money.

[Buck Birdseed]

I think the sentiments expressed by many in this thread are as good a proof as any why straight Capitalism doesn't work outside the local, small-group, high-information area, much like Communism. It's this kind of "let's not haggle, let's hunt for the best price, let's just go in and buy something for the hell of it!" attitude that leads to cartelling, to inefficiency, to "good enough" attitudes and ultimately to loadsa waste and overpriced goods.

The perfectly informed, big corporations who want to keep on giving ridiculous bonuses to their executives and not put everything into continually developing the economy can sleep safe at night in the knowledge that since consumers don't want to do anything (and indeed are unable to do much) to drive prices down, they can continue to draw huge profit margins and never fall prey to leaner, hungrier colleagues.

[Dinner]

Buck: You forgetting about competetion. In most countries where haggling doesn't occur the competetion amoung retailers is the most ferrious. Since most people buy most of their goods from the store with the lowest price the other two dozen stores are forced to lower their prices or go out of business.

In an economy with sufficient competetion the profit margins will naturally stay small due to consumers preferentially buying from stores with lower prices.