Old Europe left out in the cold?

[DanS]

I totally agree with Spiffor. This is all a question about the future leadership of Europe, with Iraq as the background and Anti-Americanism as the oil to grease the wheels.

Whatever the good that the past relationship brought, why did France and Germany plant their flag on territory that they could not keep? It seeems like they set themselves up for failure. Or perhaps they didn't know where the leaders of other top members in the club, like Spain and Italy, stood. Now, Rumsfeld is proven right within a week. Congrats! Good job!

It seems incredible to me that France and Germany think that they can drive the EU in the absence of the UK, Italy, and Spain.

[Sandman]

More Blix:

Iraq has on the whole cooperated rather well so far with Unmovic in this field. The most important point to make is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect and with one exception it has been prompt. We have further had great help in building up the infrastructure of our office in Baghdad and the field office in Mosul. Arrangements and services for our plane and our helicopters have been good. The environment has been workable.

[Drake Tungsten]

You left out when Blix said that "simply opening doors is not enough"...

[Sandman]

He seems to want the Iraqis to shower him with flowers.

[Drake Tungsten]

He seems to want the Iraqis to shower him with flowers.

Or actually show him where their illegal weapons are...

[DanS]

He seems to want the Iraqis to shower him with flowers.

They should have. It was their last chance to show that they were disarmed.

[Sandman]

Hooray for logically impossible conditions! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

The fact that the inspectors have found next to nothing just proves that he's hiding something, doesn't it?

As I said, there's no way for the Iraqis to prove their innocence.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
The fact that the inspectors have found next to nothing just proves that he's hiding something, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. However, the fact that they have yet to provide any real accounting for large stockpiles of weapons is a pretty good clue though.

[Sandman]

What does 'real' accounting consist of?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
What does 'real' accounting consist of?

It means verifiable.

[Ned]

Actually there may be two power struggles going on: a first from France and Germany trying to show their independence from the United States, and then from the Uk, Spain, Poland, et al., trying to show their independence from the France and Germany.

Even if France and Germany come around on this, the strains in America's "alliance" with France and Germany are revealed. Ditto, France and Germany's relationship with the rest of the European Union.

[Drake Tungsten]

Even if France and Germany come around on this, the strains in America's "alliance" with France and Germany are revealed. Ditto, France and Germany's relationship with the rest of the European Union.

Very true.

This is rather disturbing when you really think about it. A strong transatlantic relationship is in the best interests of all those who support liberal democracy and free-market capitalisim.

[Sandman]

How do you verify something does not exist?

Don't forget the third power struggle, Ned, between the people of Europe who don't want a war and their apparently undemocratic leaders.

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by Ned
Actually there may be two power struggles going on: a first from France and Germany trying to show their independence from the United States, and then from the Uk, Spain, Poland, et al., trying to show their independence from the France and Germany.

Even if France and Germany come around on this, the strains in America's "alliance" with France and Germany are revealed. Ditto, France and Germany's relationship with the rest of the European Union.

I hardly think that the EU will fall apart over this one issue, I think we'll find a common middle ground as we always do and the EU will continue to prosper and offer an alternative large power bloc to the USA.

I think the French and Germans are a little OTT in their anti-American attitudes at the moment but then again Blair's servile attitude stinks big time too. As I said a middle ground of maintaining a good relationship with America ( and naturally Russia & China on the other side ) is essential but blindly supporting/opposing the US should be avoided at all costs.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sandman
How do you verify something does not exist?

Don't forget the third power struggle, Ned, between the people of Europe who don't want a war and their apparently undemocratic leaders.

Sandman, I have a feeling that will be worked out at the ballot box. I understand that Schroeder is in real trouble in Germany, for example.

But, just for the sake of argument - suppose the war occurs and goes well. In the last war, US public opinion -- evenly divided prior to the war -- turned decisively in favor after it started and went well. Democrats who had strongly opposed the war had to rely on other issues in the next election.

I don't recall the European public's attitude on the first Gulf War prior to its start. I suspect it was divided as it was in the United States. But today, there seems to be a consensus that the first Gulf War was justified. The same swing in public attitudes my take place if Gulf War II is a whopping success.