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  • #46
    Originally posted by HershOstropoler
    Of course, if you want to believe the world is mostly But for the conclusion on general antisemitic sentiment, you would have to explain what has suddenly changed. Or is it perhabs just that a particular segment of antisemites has turned violent.
    Well, maybe people from France could explain better than I...



    Thursday, APRIL 18, 2002

    In France, Vandalism of Synagogues Is Not New

    Worst Incidents in Europe Against Jews

    By Elizabeth Press

    Attacks on synagogues in Strasbourg, Paris, Marseille, Montpellier, and Lyon, as well as on a Jewish school bus in a Parisian suburb, are all part of an upsurge of violence against Jews in France. The most brutal attack took place in Marseille where the Or Aviv synagogue was burnt down on the night of March 31.
    This is the greatest wave of anti-Semitic violence since World War II. “It gives me the chills and I don’t want to stay in this damned country,” says Melisa Cahn, who works in Paris, but is originally from Strasbourg. She has walked through many pro-Palestinian demonstrations and is afraid to wear a Jewish star for fear of unnecessary trouble. Her desire to leave France, though, is “not out of fear, but disgust … that all these anti-Israeli feelings have turned into anti-Semitism.”
    France is the European country with the worst backlash against its Jewish community in terms of violence in response to the Middle East crisis. These acts, however, are not committed by far-right extremists. Furthermore, both the government and most non-Jewish citizens universally condemn them. Instead, the hatred comes from certain members of the Arab populace. “These are not anti-Semitic acts, but anti-Zionist acts. It is the reaction against the situation in the Middle East,” said Emmanuelle Arnould, a student of political science from the Lorraine region. “France is the country with the biggest Arab population and since De Gaulle it has followed a pro-Arab foreign policy.”

    Issues were swept
    under the rug

    Unlike the Germans, the French took many years to come to terms with their dark history of collaboration and anti-Semitism. These issues were swept under the rug and hardly dealt with as a matter of national concern after World War II when Charles de Gaulle glamourized the French resistance.
    On top of this, waves of Arab immigrants arrived after the war and were never integrated into mainstream French society. Many of their children have grown up to become part of a marginalized and underprivileged population. Both their frustrations about their lives in France and their anger about the oppression of the Palestinians play a role in the French Arabs’ hostility to the Jews, a numerically weaker minority. Ms. Arnould also attributes the violence to incompetent law enforcement. The vandalism of synagogues and other places by young people is no new phenomenon in France. Police often turn a blind eye to petty crime, she claims, and criminals are often not sent to jail. Although the intensification of violence in France is recent, it is only the tip of an iceberg that has been under the surface for decades.
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    • #47
      while just a few weeks ago a liberal Rabbi in Paris was stabbed and had his car set on fire for reasons which remain obscure.
      I'm try to figure out this guy's name but I remember reading a Los Angles Times article about it when it happened and apparently this rabbi was a major political organizer for the French Jewish community. Also nothing was stolen so robbery doesn't seem to be the motive more likely it was a planned political killing by neo-nazis or other anti-semetic group.
      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by notyoueither You wish to tolerate this shiete? I do not. I will not suffer those who do, either.
        No, I don't wish to tolerate it, but too many people either won't speak up or don't believe that it will make a difference if they do.
        Never give an AI an even break.

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        • #49
          notyou, your level of knowledge on the issue is abysmal, you just babble on the crap you've read.Cerberus has mad good points, I'll expand and try to educate you.

          1) there is, in France and in most of the world, a residus level of anti semitism, from Le Pen to KKK. I do not know why, but that's the case. It's not France specific.

          2) since the ME 'events' Sharon has been playing up the 'anti semitic' issue in France, to continue with his strategy of polarizing jews (and not only israeli) against all those who disagree with his policies. Fortunately many isr. and many jews do not, but the community pressure to support the state of Israel in times of danger is very strong. So the media spin on this, esp in anglo saxon media, comes from here, and the good old french bashing you guy love so much. I swear I've been reading the Economist for 10 years and NOT ****ING ONCE I've I seen a positive comments on France. I don't know what's the measure of objectivity, but that ain't it. And yes I keep reading it, but I also like to get whiped on the a**, dressed in black leather.

          3) violence against Synagogue has been very symbolic, no dead, very limited damages. It's been hugely shocking, for good reasons, because we all thought the jewish community was very well integrated here (after all, they gave us many prime ministers). Another explanation for over media exposure and sense of shock. This is positive to talk about it, but not distort facts.

          4) finally, petty crimes from the suburds, where we have left our arabs communities in a crap situation, plugged itself on the ME event. Some young unemployed arabs feel aggrieved for Palestine, and know no better than insult jews. That's crap, we should tackle that and we are, but that's not the 'old' european antisemitic (the oven type, as put very elegantly by someone here) media claim it is. It is a social problem (for which we french have full responsibility) plugging itself on a perception of international affairs.

          Don't buy all that CNN force feed you. Media is an industry, with its own agenda, and exposing complex social interactions in 1 mn of broadcast or 20 lines takes too much efforts for most.
          Last edited by Maroule; January 24, 2003, 07:02.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Oerdin


            I'm try to figure out this guy's name but I remember reading a Los Angles Times article about it when it happened and apparently this rabbi was a major political organizer for the French Jewish community. Also nothing was stolen so robbery doesn't seem to be the motive more likely it was a planned political killing by neo-nazis or other anti-semetic group.

            check your facts. The rabbi was lightly stabbed, and after a quick check at the hospital, he walked away, celebrating the day after an eocumenic ceremony with christians and muslim against this type of violence. BTW, he is also a very liberal rabbi that has been accused to be too softs on arabs. Nobody know why he was singled out.
            Last edited by Maroule; January 24, 2003, 07:01.

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            • #51
              and fianally thanks for providing this piece of crap journalism I was refering too : Ms Press didn't do her homework, despite 'dwelling in the dark past of French history'. About 6 years ago, Chirac made a ground breaking speech to admit the responsibility of the French state (and just not of Vichy, as was the case before) in the WWII events, and asking for forgiveness. It was hailed by french jews as the final symbolic gesture to heal the past.

              Miss Press should check the treatment of arabs here, it's much more scandalous. But who gives a fly about arabs anyway, esp. today....

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              • #52
                NYE:

                "Well, maybe people from France could explain better than I..."

                That's an odd article. On the one hand:

                "These acts, however, are not committed by far-right extremists. Furthermore, both the government and most non-Jewish citizens universally condemn them. Instead, the hatred comes from certain members of the Arab populace."

                And then she's getting her klit in a twist to "traditional" french antisemitism:

                "These issues were swept under the rug and hardly dealt with as a matter of national concern after World War II when Charles de Gaulle glamourized the French resistance."

                Which is supposed to tell us that the french dealing with Vichy etc makes arabs antisemitic?

                It's quite pointless. Most surveys give you a bedrock of antisemites in western countries of something like 15-20 %. You only get larger deviations when the questions and results are structured to count reservations against zionism as antisemitism.
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Maroule
                  notyou, your level of knowledge on the issue is abysmal, you just babble on the crap you've read.Cerberus has mad good points, I'll expand and try to educate you.
                  Maroule, your level of acceptance of crap is crap. You just babble on the crap your press has fed you. Many people make good points, if you listen you may be educated.

                  1) there is, in France and in most of the world, a residus level of anti semitism, from Le Pen to KKK. I do not know why, but that's the case. It's not France specific.
                  It seems to be France they are moving away from. Not in huge numbers, percentage wise, but many do not feel safe. That's not my fault, buddy. It's not yours either, most likely. But it's happening in your country. What are you going to do about it?

                  2) since the ME 'events' Sharon has been playing up the 'anti semitic' issue in France, to continue with his strategy of polarizing jews (and not only israeli) against all those who disagree with his policies. Fortunately many isr. and many jews do not, but the community pressure to support the state of Israel in times of danger is very strong. So the media spin on this, esp in anglo saxon media, comes from here, and the good old french bashing you guy love so much. I swear I've been reading the Economist for 10 years and NOT ****ING ONCE I've I seen a positive comments on France. I don't know what's the measure of objectivity, but that ain't it. And yes I keep reading it, but I also like to get whiped on the a**, dressed in black leather.
                  Oh sure. 'They' are the problem... Well, that is a bit polemic. Not much value there. Let's move on.

                  3) violence against Synagogue has been very symbolic, no dead, very limited damages. It's been hugely shocking, for good reasons, because we all thought the jewish community was very well integrated here (after all, they gave us many prime ministers). Another explanation for over media exposure and sense of shock. This is positive to talk about it, but not distort facts.
                  You feel shocked. Great. They feel unsafe. They are beginning to move. Do you honestly blame them?

                  4) finally, petty crimes from the suburds, where we have left our arabs communities in a crap situation, plugged itself on the ME event. Young unemployed arabs feel aggrieved for Palestine, and know no better than insult jews. That's crap, we should tackle that and we are, but that's not the 'old' european antisemitic (the oven type, as put very elegantly by someone here) media claim it is. It is a social problem plugging itself on a perception of international affairs.

                  Don't buy all that CNN force feed you. Media is an industry, with its own agenda, and exposing complex social interactions in 1 mn of broadcast or 20 lines takes too much efforts for most.
                  Again, the problem is not with what most French people want or feel, the problem is with what the antisemites are doing. You may excuse it as just the angst of underpriviledged migrants. I don't. I don't have any patience for antisemitism of any kind for any reason. Do you think Jewish people should be more tolerant? Why?

                  I don't watch cnn much, btw.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                    You only get larger deviations when the questions and results are structured to count reservations against zionism as antisemitism.
                    Blaming a Jew in some town for Zionism is racism, in most cases.
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                    • #55
                      1. It's not necessarily "blaming" any jew. You can be antizionist and solely "blame" the Israeli political establishment.
                      2. if that is the case though, that for a person antizionism goes hand in hand with antisemitism, there are enough other questions to detect the antisemitism
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                      • #56
                        the recent eruptions of violence in France

                        I think that is what is distressing, Roland.
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Maroule
                          and the good old french bashing you guy love so much.
                          Yes, we do like French bashing. You see when the anti-American posts start coming fast and thick we Yanks know that by starting a French bashing thread everyone will lose interest in us and will team up against the French.

                          It is a good destraction and best of all everyone, except the French, find it fun.
                          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by notyoueither


                            "Maroule, your level of acceptance of crap is crap. You just babble on the crap your press has fed you. Many people make good points, if you listen you may be educated."

                            unfortunately, most of the points here from french bashers have been heard on TV, second hand. I'd love to have a french jew in the debate, at least the discussion would go somewhere. And my press don't feed me, it's as crap (and sometimes a lot crappier) than yours.

                            "It seems to be France they are moving away from. Not in huge numbers, percentage wise, but many do not feel safe. That's not my fault, buddy. It's not yours either, most likely. But it's happening in your country. What are you going to do about it?"

                            Many frenchmen do not feel safe, many americans do not feel safe, the world is not a very safe place these days. What do I do about it? about as much as you, I babble on forums.


                            "Oh sure. 'They' are the problem... Well, that is a bit polemic. Not much value there. Let's move on."

                            I hope for your mental sanity that you don't think media in general are very reliable. I hope you question, at times, what you're being told instead of just rolling eyes.


                            "You feel shocked. Great. They feel unsafe. They are beginning to move. Do you honestly blame them?"

                            It's not for me to blame anybody, and the right to 'vote with your feet' is on the very top of my list. Now, if I had to relocate somewhere, and had the parameter of danger in mind, I wouldn't go to the US or Israel. France is a much safer place, whether you're jew or not.

                            "Again, the problem is not with what most French people want or feel, the problem is with what the antisemites are doing. You may excuse it as just the angst of underpriviledged migrants. I don't. I don't have any patience for antisemitism of any kind for any reason. Do you think Jewish people should be more tolerant? Why?"


                            I don't remember asking Jews to be more tolerant. I'm trying to explain that what you're being force fed is a gross and insulting exageration of the truth. I don't minimise anti semitism, we should have zero tolerance for that, but again, in France today, the most pressing/shocking social problems are not related to jews. It's as simple as that.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Oerdin


                              Yes, we do like French bashing. You see when the anti-American posts start coming fast and thick we Yanks know that by starting a French bashing thread everyone will lose interest in us and will team up against the French.

                              It is a good destraction and best of all everyone, except the French, find it fun.

                              actually, I don't mind so much, 90% of it is silly or fun, but you have 10% of anger, real spite, that I can't explain myself.

                              Besides, if it's the price to poke americains, I'll gladly pay it

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Maroule
                                and fianally thanks for providing this piece of crap journalism I was refering too : Ms Press didn't do her homework, despite 'dwelling in the dark past of French history'. About 6 years ago, Chirac made a ground breaking speech to admit the responsibility of the French state (and just not of Vichy, as was the case before) in the WWII events, and asking for forgiveness. It was hailed by french jews as the final symbolic gesture to heal the past.
                                I think rather it was the first gesture. The next one is to stop burning down synagogues, but maybe that won't happen because it's not symbolic enough for you?

                                And the point in the article till stands. France is finally (6 years ago) coming to terms with its history (the worst parts of which started 63 years ago).
                                I refute it thus!
                                "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

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