Westerns as human shields in Iraq

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Comrade Tribune, I didn't think it would be possible to sink any lower, but you have. That cartoon is antisemitic and offensive.

I can well associate him with the guy wearing the swastika.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Why is it anti-semitic to compare the actions of Israelis and Nazis? If the shoe fits, right?

Are you completely brain damaged?

[Meshelic]

Wow. for only a day this thread has gone to unimaginable lengths.

Everyone has stooped to flaming, and perhaps I should have foreseen this happening, and was wrong to continue this argument with people who obviously don't understand, nor wish to understand.

How many people on the threads use a flag that is different than their own country's? Just curious....I know several that constantly change their flag every other month, sometimes to represent where they're from, or what their lineage is. Is that wrong?

I'm an American who supports Israel, and has jewish blood. Is that evil? I find your cartoon Comrade, filthy and offensive. Is it so bad that I have a star of David above my avatar? So far, how many times have I been insulted for this?

People can sit back and watch the world destroy itself. Fine. That's their deal, not mine. I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, nor am I putting words in other people's mouths.

To cinch: The US, during the Gulf War, DID kill Iraqi civilians, like I said, my father was a General, and my brother is a pilot. They are not murderers. Were these people killed wrongfully? Perhaps, perhaps not. Were any of you there? No. Was I there? No. Have you seen the video of Saddam ordering civilians to stand in front of military targets that he knew the US would bomb? Maybe yes, maybe no. If you have you would understand.

As far as the war goes, no it hasn't been declared yet. But rest assured, it will. 1/4 of the UK military forces are in the region, as well as 1/5 of the US forces. Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Australia have all sent forces there too, with the intent to topple Saddam. So it WILL happen, it's only a matter of WHEN.

Also to Cinch - no military service is not the only way to serve a country, and keep in mind I did not SAY that. I chose that path for myself, because that's what I felt was best. Paying taxes, working a job, etc are all ways of serving your country.

But when I'm accused of not knowing my loyalty, accused of being a traitor, accused of all these things when I've been serving my country in my own way, this is shameful and sad for me. It angers me as well. Accusations like that, after what I've gone through, are painful and shameful.

Also to Cinch - Is it not my choice to decide not to listen to someone elses opinion? just as it is yours? If Comrade tells me his opinion and I disagree, I'm not OBILIGATED to hear him out, just as he is not obligated to hear ME out. Make sense at all to you?

And no I don't look forward to seeing people die. I've seen it enough in my life, and unfortunately I know I'll see it more. It's unavoidable. I don't REALLY wish death on anyone, but foolish people who refuse to understand that everything is a cycle, what happens in Iraq, Israel, China, Indonesia, any country, affects the other. People who say leave Iraq alone....they don't understand that everything comes around, whether they like it or not.

The American's had no idea 9/11 would happen. They said "lets wash our hands of this foreign stuff, lets leave them alone" and look what happened! The two largest buildings in the states get demolished by terrorists!

Blind patriot I am not. I've studied my history books, I know what and why I'm doing what I'm doing. So what if you disagree? Do I care? Should I care? No it doesn't matter, I know why I'm doing it, I know why I say the things I say, it's all a matter of history, both personal and worldly.

Go ahead, dissect this post, word for word. Again. And again. If that's how you want to use your freedom of speech, fine. I can take quite a beating, I'll still feel the same way. You can't break me by cutting and pasting my words into quotes and commenting on each sentence. It won't work, might as well give it up, eh?


Meshelic

[David Floyd]

NYE,

Are you completely brain damaged?

Oh, I'm not comparing Nazis to Israelis. I'm just saying that if their actions were to be similar, it would not be anti-semitic to say so.

Mesh,

The US, during the Gulf War, DID kill Iraqi civilians, like I said, my father was a General, and my brother is a pilot. They are not murderers.

Actually, killing innocent people IS murder, wartime or not.

Were any of you there? No. Was I there? No.

How's that relevant? You weren't at Auschwitz, yet you would rightfully say the Holocaust was wrong.

Have you seen the video of Saddam ordering civilians to stand in front of military targets that he knew the US would bomb? Maybe yes, maybe no. If you have you would understand.

Understand what? That Saddam isn't a very nice guy? Duh.

As far as the war goes, no it hasn't been declared yet. But rest assured, it will.

If Congress doesn't declare war, there can be no legal war.

They said "lets wash our hands of this foreign stuff, lets leave them alone" and look what happened! The two largest buildings in the states get demolished by terrorists!

Actually, 9/11 happened BECAUSE we DID involve ourselves in other people's business, not because we minded our own. Are you seriously telling me that if the US had not stationed troops all over the Gulf, if the US hadn't waged war on Iraq, if the US didn't give billions in military aid to Israel, if the US didn't support Israel against the Arab nations in wartime, etc., that 9/11 still would have happened? Please.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by David Floyd
NYE,

Oh, I'm not comparing Nazis to Israelis. I'm just saying that if their actions were to be similar, it would not be anti-semitic to say so.

Since when did the average Israeli say 'there is no Palestine, no Palestinian culture and no Palestinian people!'???

Why is it anti-semitic to compare the actions of Israelis and Nazis? If the shoe fits, right?

You have equated Nazi (an ideology) with Israel (a nation). You have failed to admit that not all Israelis would think the same way on the subject of the Palestinians. You have tarred them all with a racist brush. Don't worry, it is quite common for anti-Semites to think that all Jewish people think the same way and do the same things. Being anti-Semetic isn't such a bad thing... if you're a Nazi.

[Meshelic]

Like I said, go ahead and dissect my posts. No problem.

Oh, one further thing that came to mind, as far as my having a flag of Israel above my avatar and being accused of "not knowing where my loyalties stand" :

How many people have a European Union flag above their avatar? Are they as confused as I've been accused of being? Europe is not a country, but oh I'm sure you knew that. But according to the standards thrown against me, they are confused too.


David Floyd - how about during WWII? When air raids all over the place bombed the heck out of "general" locations in cities? Civilians and military personel alike were killed, it was horrific. Is the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Italy, USA, China, Japan all murderers? By your standard, yes. But by the standard THEN, it was commonplace.

Now the US and it's allies have stealth bombers/fighters that operate using PRECISE weapons, to take out military targets only. I won't insult your intelligence by implying you didn't know that too.

Come on now, is war to be averted now? Really...? Yes it's up to Congress, but are they going to vote yes or no? Who knows...lets just say it's more than likely to occur. As much as some people wish to avoid it, it will probably happen. Watch!

Okay, and also, bear in mind the Saudi's BEGGED for US assistance in 1990, fearing that Iraq would invade them as well! Sure enough, Iraq took Kuwait, and Kuwait called for Allied help! So if you want to point blame, sure, you can blame the US for helping friends when they ask for help.

Regarding the Holocaust? Lemme guess, you would say it never happened? Or that it was RIGHT? C'mon, whoever says it never happened is full of it. Nazi officials even admitted to it. Ever heard of Albert Speer? Yeah he opposed it, but he knew it was happening. Read his biography. It's all in there. There's also much more proof, but you would probably call heresay.

By the way, read the UN reports on Iraqi chemical weapons/biological weapons. You'll find that there is more than enough weapons in Iraq to kill all life on earth, and I'm talking just biological here. It's all there! Would you say the UN is lying too?

[Kramerman]

Actually, killing innocent people IS murder, wartime or not.

Only if it is intentional Otherwise, by American law, its merely manslaughter, or nothing if its in self defense... and that is during peacetime, against American citizens.

How's that relevant? You weren't at Auschwitz, yet you would rightfully say the Holocaust was wrong.

How is that relevant? Im sorry, but what happened at Auschwitz is a completely different circumstance than the Gulf War.

Understand what? That Saddam isn't a very nice guy? Duh.

Then what are you complaining about?

If Congress doesn't declare war, there can be no legal war.

There can be a police action, where the President may deploy troops into hostilities for up to 60 days (IIRC), but for more time he must ask Congress for permission to continue, or ask them to declare war.

Kman

[cinch]

Go ahead, dissect this post, word for word. Again. And again. If that's how you want to use your freedom of speech, fine. I can take quite a beating, I'll still feel the same way. You can't break me by cutting and pasting my words into quotes and commenting on each sentence. It won't work, might as well give it up, eh?

Well, I'm not going to dissect your post, because I really don't have much more to add to what we've both said so far. I still strongly disagree with you, but I'm fairly satisfied by the points you made, and I understand where you're coming from.

I apologise if my previous post was inflammatory, but I just get a little riled up when I read something that APPEARS to be anticipation for the death of others who disagree with you.

[Meshelic]

Cinch - I understand. We live in troubling times, we all do. I want peace, God help me I want peace, I want everyone to live and be happy and enjoy living! But sometimes, in my honest opinion, you have to fight for freedom, you have to fight to be able to say what you want to say, to whom you want. The Iraqi citizens don't have that kind of freedom.

Don't worry, I don't take offense to what you said.

I DO however, take offense to that despicable cartoon, and many of the comments some here have made.

[Meshelic]

And the rest...as they say....is history.

[Pekka]

Comrade Tribune, Well, we haven't' had any problems with Americans here, or Israelis.. though I have to add we didn't have any problem with Iraqis here either except now. I don't know how the hell did they admitted his citizenship, since we have pretty tough system to beat, and we're one of the toughest places to get citizenship.. and since he was from Iraq, they mus have triple checked him.. well I guess these things happen, I'm glad he got caught. As for giving him to the hands of the US, I see no problem. Iraq is not our ally. We wouldn't do that by default, but if they ask us, I don't know.. why not? We don't consider the US our enemy, nor do we consider Iraq our friend, quite the opposite.

Meshelic, what do you think about my idea of American Foregin Legion? I made a long thread about it earlier, but to put it in short: It's not like French Foreign Legion. The US would recruit young, fit men, some with military experience. They don't get pay days, no big salaries at all, only food, up keep, and some pocket money. They'd be trained like the rest of the US army, no differencies, maybe turn the notch up a bit, since these guys should be motivated and tough. After they have succesfully served their time (maybe like 4 to 6 years?), they'd get citizenship and educational benefits so they could get a degree and be productive citizens after army. These guys would do lots of combat, under one new flag. They'd have the same requirements as everyone else, they'd have to be able to speak english good etc. Other things like possible spies and so have been thought about in my earlier thread, so this is just the basic idea, what do you think? Free troopers!! Loyal, motivated and all.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Comrade Tribune, I didn't think it would be possible to sink any lower, but you have. That cartoon is antisemitic and offensive.

No it isn't. Think first, speak later.

Comrade Tribbie has done enough in the past to demonstrate a marked trait of anti-semitism (which is why I'm wondering how he's managed to stir everybody up so much; get a grip), but that cartoon in itself is not anti-semitic. It is, however, beyond the limits of good taste...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Since when did the average Israeli say 'there is no Palestine, no Palestinian culture and no Palestinian people!'???

My friend, the head of Hillel at McGill was rather fond of telling me that (he is a joint Canadian-Israeli citizen, IIRC).

[KrazyHorse]

He was also very fond of telling me that the Palestinians should all move to Jordan, and that the Palestinian problem was wholly the fault of the Arab countries surrounding Israel who did not welcome a mass immigration of that sort.

And yes, on occasion his attitudes pushed the bounds of what I'd consider an acceptable difference of opinion and started to verge on what I'd call racist. Now remember that he was the elected head of the largest Jewish association on a major Canadian campus, and you'll have some sense of the intolerance (displayed by both sides, I might add; there was stuff coming out of the SPHR that was just as objectionable...)

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


That was related to the guy saying we would get our embassies blown up but for him...

As to Austrians: We discovered Genetics, among many other things: http://www.accessexcellence.org/AB/B...or_Mendel.html
I won´t even mention our many contributions to world culture, so as not to embarass Americans, whose culture is close to nil...

Yes, yes, Austria, the land of extremes, the land of Hitler and Mozart.