Troll Fest Part II

[Dauphin]

Conservatives - Iain Duncan Smith
Liberal Democrats - Charles Kennedy.

[Dauphin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What crap are you talking?

Originally posted by Ned


1) If the Monarchy remained but had nothing to do with religion, a large reason for the animosity between the Irish and English would be removed.

How do you figure that?

2) Is it not true that Charles was forbidden to marry a Catholic?

The church would be opposed on the grounds that Camilla is a divorcee (Charles is a widower). However there is no reason to believe that the church would stand in the way of the marriage.

Parliament would most likely change the Act of Settlement if Charles wanted to marry a Catholic.

Edit - factual corrections

[Ned]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What crap are you talking?

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Originally posted by Ned

1) If the Monarchy remained but had nothing to do with religion, a large reason for the animosity between the Irish and English would be removed.

SD responded,

How do you figure that?

The problem a lot of Irish have had is swearing an oath of allegiance to a Monarch who is head of the Church of England.

SD said,
The church would be opposed on the grounds that Camilla is a divorcee (Charles is a widower). However there is no reason to believe that the church would stand in the way of the marriage.

Parliament would most likely change the Act of Settlement if Charles wanted to marry a Catholic.

SD, you seem to ignore that Charles dated and wanted to marry Camilla while both were still single. His mother and father said no. If he had done so, he would have been bypassed for succession or, as with George IV, I believe, he would have been forced to have the marriage annulled.

[Dauphin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What crap are you talking?

Originally posted by Ned


The problem a lot of Irish have had is swearing an oath of allegiance to a Monarch who is head of the Church of England.

Thats not a religious issue its a national issue. If it was religious why have we had a Jewish Prime Minister swear allegiance to a Queen, or a whole host of Catholic MPs swear allegiance to the Queen?

SD, you seem to ignore that Charles dated and wanted to marry Camilla while both were still single. His mother and father said no. If he had done so, he would have been bypassed for succession or, as with George IV, I believe, he would have been forced to have the marriage annulled.

George IV was king for 10 years and his reign was ended by death. I presume you mean Edward VIII.

In his circumstances he abdicated because of Wallis Simpson, a divorcee. The reason the issue of abdication was forced upon him was because Prime Minister Baldwin wanted the King, a Nazi sympathiser, to resign his position. This was a perfect opportunity to do just that.

If Charles had asked for a change in the law in 1970s, then the PM at the time would more than likely passed a law permitting it. There is no reason to want Charles to pass up his claim to the throne.

Charles has also stated that when/if he becomes King he will be referred to as Defender of the Faiths. Implying that although he is the head of the Church of England he is also upholding other faiths, Catholicism included.




All this said, I still want to know how this impacts on real government, which lays in the hands of the elected parliament. How is the UK system of government "the ultimate goal of such modernists as Osama bin Laden."?

The UK has had a wider spectrum of leaders - When was the last time the US had a female or a Jewish President?

[Thud]

Thats not a religious issue its a national issue. If it was religious why have we had a Jewish Prime Minister swear allegiance to a Queen, or a whole host of Catholic MPs swear allegiance to the Queen?

The Irish are a proud people. Even of their religion, which frowns on hubris. Go figure.

[Sandman]

Hmm, I thought Disraeli was only half Jewish, or was there another Jewish one?

[Ned]

Sagacious Dolphin, you know exactly why Prince Charles will take the title of "Defender of the Faiths." His own life is screwed up because he could not marry Camilla, a Catholic. But regardless of his reasons, this is a tremendous step toward the right direction.

As to the Irish not wanting to swear allegiance to a monarch was also head of the Church of England, that has a lot to do with England's historical discrimination against Irish Catholics. My own family, for example, fled Ireland in 1850. There is a reason my family fled Ireland in 1850. It had a lot to with religious discrimination.

As to England, I congratulate you on having both Jewish and women Prime Ministers. I suspect that one day we to will have our own as president. Up until today, we have had exactly one president who was not a Protestant, and that was John F. Kennedy, an Irish Catholic.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Sandman
Hmm, I thought Disraeli was only half Jewish, or was there another Jewish one?

He was, and there wasn't.

But it certainly says something that it took into the 20th century for the US to even elect a Catholic president, while the UK had elected a half-Jew PM in the 19th century...

[Dauphin]

There is a reason my family fled Ireland in 1850. It had a lot to with religious discrimination.

In 1850 the US discriminated with extreme prejudice against blacks.


Now are you going to explain the OBL statement or not?

[Dauphin]

BTW if we are bringing up family histories my family is half-Catholic, my mother's mother was Irish.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger


He was, and there wasn't.

But it certainly says something that it took into the 20th century for the US to even elect a Catholic president, while the UK had elected a half-Jew PM in the 19th century...

We had people from poor families though. Lots from log cabins and such.

[KrazyHorse]

I thought this discussion was centring on religious tolerance?

At that time, the UK was certainly more classist than the US.

[Dauphin]

It still is. The whole idea of a Monarchy is classist.

Its just that having a Monarchy is seen as acceptable compared to the alternatives.

[KrazyHorse]

The British monarchy is of course inherently classist...but it is a figurehead, not a real source of power.

[Dauphin]

Which is why I don't understand why Ned is putting so much emphasis on the Monarchy as being intolerant to a religion.

If the PM couldn't be a Catholic I would demand repeal of that law. As it is its that a Catholic can't get married to the heir of a nominal title without a bit of media frenzy.