Martial arts?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Define "qualified". I've certainly fought TKD blackbelts. Highest ranking person I've fought is a Third Degree black belt, and I won. Haven't had the opportunity to fight anyone higher than that.




Well, I've seen it in action in TKD tournaments, and I've seen it in action in MMA tournaments. What I've noticed is that in TKD tournaments, you see flashy high kicks. In MMA and NHB tournaments, you do not.



Side kicks are both easily avoided and easily countered with a Thai kick or some type of sweep kick. They can also be caught.



If a TKD fighter brings their leg up for an axe kick, I'll simply shoot on them - sure, I might eat part of a kick, but the kick will not be correctly timed to do maximum damage, and in any case, one kick won't knock me out. Once I get a striker on the ground, they aren't going to have a chance unless they've cross-trained in an effective style of NHB grappling.



First of all, I'm not sure how you are going to "tenderize" the ribs of a good kickboxer or cross-trained grappler. I think you will at least agree that a single Thai kick has more power behind it than any single TKD kick, right? If someone is trained to catch, block, and even absorb Thai kicks, don't you think they can do the same against TKD-style kicks?

This brings us to high kicks. These are very susceptible to being caught, by a good grappler. Not only that, but if the kick misses (and high kicks can also be avoided), the kicker is a bit turned around and possibly even off balance, which leaves them wide open. Finally, there are various good methods for blocking a high kick - these methods are designed to do maximum damage to the kicker, by the way.



I realize this. The problem is, though, multiple kick attacks and combos are kinda useless when the first kick is either caught or countered.



Yes, I'm sure there have been individual cases of a TKD fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter (I assume we're talking about fighters with the same EXPERIENCE level - ranking doesn't really matter, but practical fight experience DOES). However, in general, MMA and NHB tournaments - as well as non-tournament fight experience and training - have shown me that Muay Thai is a much more realistic self defense fighting style.

In UFC, for example, Cal Worsham - the #1 ranked TKD fighter - got his ass kicked. There have been various people in UFC claiming TKD as their style, yet I haven't seen them use any of these multiple kick attacks or combos. The highest ranking TKD fighter I've fought, a 3rd degree black belt, wasn't able to pull off any effective multiple kick combos. I remember that he did try a back kick, which wasn't horribly effective when countered with a Thai kick.

Not that Muay Thai is the ultimate martial art (well, it's not artistic at all, it's a fighting style - martial science, if you will) - no system is the best. Cross-training is very important, and a cross-trained fighter will beat a one dimensional fighter every time.

I do agree Maui Tai is a very effective style, but to say TKD is totally ineffective thats ludacrious, As for a kick missing and going by, well, thats most probably because the kicker was incorectly throwing his technique. Controled rlease, not wild reckless abandon go into a kick, now if you release the kick and your opponent moves well, it will happen, but you just dont throw wild uncontrolled kicks, thats something all martial artists hould know. Not to bust your Bubble or expose anything that isnt suspected or known, but UFC is great I am just not sure how authentic these fighters are? I am not saying they are not good fightters, anyone whom can take that punishment has to be! I bounced for 10 years in this Marine Corps town on Infamous Court Street and know full well how long a "staged fight" in Movies last versus real deal when your falling over tables, getting bottles and pool cues broken over you head, a fight dont last very long. I watched several UFC "fighter-previews" and saw some fairly sloppy individual techniques, but Royce Gracie, man and Ken Shamrock did some fine work, thats why I am open to many forms, what works use it, as in my original post, having studied sveral styles, chose one that best suited me, I dont fight or compete anymore, serve my Lord, dropped Martial Arts because it was first in my Life, in front of Jesus Christ, so I followed his guidenace , I am not saying Martial Arts is a Sin, surely not, just for Brother Bruce, it was a hinderance unto His Glory!

Peace

Troll

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Thanks for the info Troll.

But I'm getting more and more interested in Savate. Just think about it, a French martial art of all things, and it seems it's effective too, having grown out of street fighting.

Anytime my friend!

Best of luck, like the chicken crossing the road, either do it or dont, if you halfway try it, well, no more shall you be!!

J/K..good luck!

Troll

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Um, that's the problem with kicking that isn't related to Muay Thai - shin kicks are by far the most powerful and effective kicks out there.

Hm, how did you figure that? Besides having limited applications, shin kicks are slow.

Originally posted by David Floyd
Furthermore, kicks should virtually never be used above the ribs - and the majority of kicks should be aimed at the other person's thighs (can't remember what the nerve is called, cyatic or something like that). If you want to strike someone in the face area, just punch them - punches are much quicker, and can be used in combinations much easier. If you try to kick someone in the face, odds are your leg will get caught.

Agred about kicking people in the face - but if I am kicking you and you are punching me, I have got the reach on you.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Troll
TKD teahes to spin, look over shoulder then throw technique. The reason behind is this: If you opponent is closing on you, you would jump away and throw technique

That's still dumb. You still have your back to your opponent, and your arms and legs are not evolved to operate in that direction. Not effectively, anyway.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
OK. That's what one of my friends who trained in Wing Chun used to say. My problem, though, is that a martial art that will be effective after 10 years of training isn't going to help me in two months when I get jumped, whereas Muay Thai or BJJ or Valetudo will be almost immediately useful. That's part of what I mean by realistic self defense - usefulness after a short time.

The problem with that is you trade long term for short tem. So sure, BJJ gives you a jumpstart now, while Aikido or Taichi won't. But in ten years, you'll have your arse whipped by the same people whose arses you had whipped so long ago.

[Jaakko]

Shouldn't low or middle kicks have the best reach, considering the angle your leg has to be in?

[Urban Ranger]

Yes, middle kicks have the best reach, not high kicks. I am not a fan of high kicks - look good in movies, but too vulnerable in real life. They are also slow as DF pointed out.

[Jaakko]

Hmm, there seems to be one big flaw to Savate - you have to wear a unitard in matches!

[Urban Ranger]

Jaakko,

If you have the time and inclination, I recommend picking up a soft and a hard art. Soft ones are like Judo, Aikido and Taichi. Mostly grappling and using the opponent's moves against him. Hard ones are like BJJ, TKD, and Savate.

[David Floyd]

Troll,

I do agree Maui Tai is a very effective style, but to say TKD is totally ineffective thats ludacrious,

I didn't say TKD was totally ineffective, just that a Muay Thai fighter will beat a TKD fighter most of the time.

As for a kick missing and going by, well, thats most probably because the kicker was incorectly throwing his technique.

Or, you know, the other person moving or countering.

Not to bust your Bubble or expose anything that isnt suspected or known, but UFC is great I am just not sure how authentic these fighters are?

Some suck, some don't.

I watched several UFC "fighter-previews" and saw some fairly sloppy individual techniques, but Royce Gracie, man and Ken Shamrock did some fine work,

Yes, they did - they showed the world that grappling beats striking every time, unless the striker is cross-trained.

UR,

Hm, how did you figure that? Besides having limited applications, shin kicks are slow.

Umm, the shin kicks of Maurice Smith (who is by no means the best kickboxer out there, even back in his day a few years back) were described as 90 mph baseball bats. Maybe there are other kicks that are faster, but that is fast enough.

but if I am kicking you and you are punching me, I have got the reach on you.

True, but who says I'm not willing to eat a kick to get within boxing range or takedown range? Or, what if I just grab the kicking leg?

The problem with that is you trade long term for short tem. So sure, BJJ gives you a jumpstart now, while Aikido or Taichi won't. But in ten years, you'll have your arse whipped by the same people whose arses you had whipped so long ago.

I highly doubt that an Aikido or Taichi fighter of any level will beat a BJJ fighter of a similar level.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Hmm, there seems to be one big flaw to Savate - you have to wear a unitard in matches!

But not when you are walking down a dark alley

[Jaakko]

If I ever do that, no one, and I mean NO ONE will have the guts to attack me.

[Urban Ranger]

Use it to your advantage

[Jaakko]

I was also thinking of wearing a wig, a false moustache and some '80s mirror shades so I'll look like a manly German TV detective like Schimanski.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Umm, the shin kicks of Maurice Smith (who is by no means the best kickboxer out there, even back in his day a few years back) were described as 90 mph baseball bats. Maybe there are other kicks that are faster, but that is fast enough.

I haven't seen it, and I don't know who made those decriptions - himself, his promotors, or his opponents? If you will, however, compare a baseball bat and an epee. Which is faster?

Originally posted by David Floyd
True, but who says I'm not willing to eat a kick to get within boxing range or takedown range? Or, what if I just grab the kicking leg?

If you can eat a solid kick to the mid-riff from me and still come at me without even pausing, I might as well surrender.

Originally posted by David Floyd
I highly doubt that an Aikido or Taichi fighter of any level will beat a BJJ fighter of a similar level.

BJJ relies on brute strength, while Aikido and Taichi is designed precisely to counter brute strength. Sure, novices in either is highly likely not to have developed the skills to do so, but give them 10 years, and you'll be meat.