We have (mostly) failed... :(

[Az]

you did not have problems to withdraw unilaterally from Lebanon when it suited you, even though that was blotched.

so you think of it as a good thing? tell that to the families of the soldiers kidnapped by the Hizbullah. tell that to the solider who is lying with his feet chopped off in the hospital. All these things happened after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. perhaps even the Intifada broke because of that.

[MRT144]

go arabs!

[Maroule]

Originally posted by Azazel

so you think of it as a good thing? tell that to the families of the soldiers kidnapped by the Hizbullah. tell that to the solider who is lying with his feet chopped off in the hospital. All these things happened after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. perhaps even the Intifada broke because of that.

I did not, it was blotched, as I said. Still, it was necessary. As of the situation today on this border, Israel went a long way in weakening the Lebanon state since the 70s', so what might have been an ally is now controlled by the Syrian dictatorship, and unable/unwilling to police its borders from the fanatical bastards that are festering on the palestinian despair.

"tell that to the solider who is lying with his feet chopped off in the hospital. "
I know it's hard, but you can't let this type of emotions, however justifiable they are (and they are), rule politics. That's the type of arguments suicide bombers are using (israelis killed my familly etc.) to justify the unjustifyable.

[Az]

The vast majority of suicide bombers don't blow themselves as revenge. From videos they taped before exploding, and from the ones captured, before they commited the terror act, as well as from other evidences there is a different pic. They were terminally ill, they wanted their family and themselves to recieve an honorable status, or in case of women, they were raped by their recruiters, that threatened to tell their family about the rape, that would surely lead to their murder by their own family, for "dishonouring the family".

I did not, it was blotched, as I said. Still, it was necessary. As of the situation today on this border, Israel went a long way in weakening the Lebanon state since the 70s', so what might have been an ally is now controlled by the Syrian dictatorship, and unable/unwilling to police its borders from the fanatical bastards that are festering on the palestinian despair.

cough. Israel wasn't by far the main cause of the weakening, and the destruction of Lebanon. the civil war occured in the mid 70s, and only when attacks against Israel started, Israel has entered Lebanon, first at operation Litani, and then in the "Lebanon war". Syria has already intervened in the Lebanon, and started to sponsor attacks on the northen border.

So blaming Israel for ****ing up lebanon is not very fair, esp. when not mentioning Syria. I still think that the withdrawal, in the way it was executed, was a big mistake.

MRT:

[Maroule]

I did mention Syria, who is indeed the prime suspect in the destabilisation of Lebanon
But it's a communist dictatorship, soo I'm not surprised.

As for Israel's role, I think your underestmate Israel involvement. I recommend George Crom's book, lebanese author, wrote 'le proche orient éclaté', he hates anything related to muslim fondamentalism (he was a liberal maronite christian) but his views on the question are quite enlightening.

MTR : grow up.

[MRT144]

azazel, nothing personal but ive had enough of the U.S. backing your little brat of a country. Its time to go with the people that supply the energy, the lifeblood of our country. Either that, or you can start to take over the middle east and supply oil to us at low cost...

[Az]

But it's a communist dictatorship, soo I'm not surprised.

Syria is not communist. stop saying that.

Israel did try to install a friendly puppet regime. But it was only after Lebanon was deep into civil war, and it seemed that syria was already taking over. Israel tried to prevent that from happening, because it neither wanted to be attacked constantly by the various groups there physically, and esp. didn't want that to be a Syrian pressure tool on Israel, after Syria has failed to reclaim the Golan heights in 73'. I think that the Israeli leadership was very correct in assessing the syrian goals, whether they acted correctly is a different question. I am sure that your writer knows about what am I talking. ( he's not an unbiased source, but he'll do )

MRT144: the people that supply the energy, the oil companies,seem to not agree with you, after all, their emissary Bush supports us firmly.

[MRT144]

see, the problem is bush is not only a corporate lackey, he is a christian lackey. and we all know what undying love pentecostals, and southern baptists have for israel. he is surrounded by a bunch of nitwit evangelists that think the jews should have their homeland as was prescribed in the old testament. so basicly bush will fall in line with whatever the people who vote for him and win him electoral votes want.

bush and most people dont see israel and oil as mutually exclusive and to a point they are right. but when americans die because we support your drama queen country, i think we support the wrong country. when we get charged through the nose for gas because we cant broker deals with arab countries because they see us as "the enemy" i think we support the wrong country. when i see the lunacy of support one group of war criminals over another, i say we support the ones who would give us greater economic benefit than greater religious smugness.

[Maroule]

nobody is really unbiased, in this debate, you even less than others...

Syria is communist. That is to say, is not. No regime ever was truly communist, because as an regime it is no applicable without betraying the genuine marxist ideals. 5and I'm not even discussing wether those are correct or not, for my money they're clever but deeply flawed)


MRT : now there is an argument. provocative, but interesting... I agree with the first part of your post, not really with the second...

[Az]

do you think Clinton was a Fundie Christian lackey as well, MRT?

Syria is the typical dictatorship, Hafez Assad seazed power in a military coup. how much more dictatorial can you get?

[MRT144]

he was to a point
...every southerner is a lackey to "traditional protestant values" its a crying shame that no one has a backbone to say "israel, fight your own battles, this is not our war." the fundamentalists have their hands so far up almost any southern politician you might as well have the actual leaders like falwell run for office.

[Az]

Clinton the christian fundie lackey.

Having Israel is a very big american interest. We're the by far the most stable supporter of US policies in the region and could always be trusted upon if SHTF for america.

[MRT144]

to a point clinton was a lackey. he did have his overriding democratic policies he tried to uphold, but he still was a very deeply religious man, and unfortunately that influenced his decision making in some aspects. he wasnt really a mouth piece for the christian right though.

israel is only supports us because we are keeping the arabs from invading them. why else would you support us? what other vested interest do you have in american politics and decisions. if america had a policy change and didnt support you and rather support arab nations what do we lose? i think many arab countries would take that as a goodwill gesture and maybe just maybe there wouldnt be rabid anti american fanaticism.

your friendship does not outweigh arab distrust. not in my mind at least.

[Az]

israel is only supports us because we are keeping the arabs from invading them.

the arabs have failed to win in any war against us, except the latest war in Lebanon. We did it before you helped us, and will certainly do that after that.

[MRT144]

i dont think you could win a war against against all the arab nations combined against you. if your efforts against terrorism are any indication of how you would defend yourselves the battle is already lost.