Why are Americans so different from the rest of us Westerners

[Bereta_Eder]

According to recent studies, American mindset is closer to that of Turks and Indians than that of Swedes and Germans.

[Bereta_Eder]

Too conservative.

[Arrian]

Wow, a 12 page thread about Americans being different than other Westerners. Of course, only a couple of those pages actually dealt with the question. The rest was arguing over WWII and the Cold War.

The argument over the Cold War illustates something, though. Part of it is generational, and has little to do with nationality. The other part, however, I think does mark a difference between Americans and the rest of "the West." Sikander explained the generational bit pretty well: my generation grew up as the Cold War was ending, and thus doesn't see it in the same way as those who lived through it. That doesn't make our perceptions wrong necessarily, but it's something to keep in mind. Part II, though, is that Americans tend to take the Cold War (aka the fight against Communism) more seriously than other Westerners. Part of that is ideological, in that the US is the most capitalistic of the Western nations (hell, we were the standard bearer for capitalism during the CW). Our country spent a lot of time, effort, and blood fighting to "contain" communism. Thus it is seen as a central, pivotal conflict. And, based upon the aforementioned ideology, we feel our country did the world a service.

It seems to me that other Westerners don't see it as being that important (Frogger/Kitty is the case in point). They don't frown on communism the way we tend to, being more socialistic than us. Increasingly it seems, people look at the USA and USSR as simply the primary opponents in a dangerous game, with no moral judgements of the two sides (or roughly equal moral judgement of each side). Whether or not that is "right" isn't my point. I'm just making an observation.

That's just one difference. There are a helluva lot more.

-Arrian

[Ned]

The Cold War was a contest of ideologies, not of nations. The communists believed their system was best and would inherit the Earth. The United States believed democracy was the best and should inherit the Earth. We battled across the globe for nearly fifty years until the USSR collapsed in the wake of Afghanistan, its arms race with the US and the democracy movement in Poland aided by a Polish pope.

The Cold War was, to us, a battle of good versus evil. We, of course, were the good guys.

As we lead the struggle for so long, it is no wonder that we remain fearful of extreme leftism – after all, it was our enemy for 50 years. Countries other than the US had no such exaggerated fear. In fact, they had the opposite fear – of extreme rightists -- stemming from WWII.

Perhaps this explains why the US and the rest of the West are today miles apart in basic ideology.

[Arrian]

Part of the problem is that because we were faced with the USSR (and the PRC to a lesser extent), we see communism as equalling totalitarianism. Personally, I think that the controlled economics of communism essentially requires totalitarian government, but many don't see it that way.

Anyway, my point is that it was a battle of capitalism vs. communism, not necessarily democracy vs. totalitarianism. The capitalist side was also democratic, and the communist side was totalitarian. The US, being democratic and capitalist, tends to portray the two systems (one economic, the other political) as essentially one and the same.

One is about economic freedom (over economic equality), the other about political freedom. So I think the rest of the West (man are we generalizing or what?) may seperate the two more than we do. They also don't tend to get into calling things "evil."

-Arrian

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Arrian
Anyway, my point is that it was a battle of capitalism vs. communism, not necessarily democracy vs. totalitarianism. The capitalist side was also democratic, and the communist side was totalitarian.

I don't see how it could be about democracy vs totalitarianism, given the number of despotic regimes that were propped up because they opposed communism, and democratic regimes that were overthrown because they were "communist".

[Arrian]

That's what I mean.

I'm saying that Americans tend to see it as Demo vs. Total partly because that's the way the US gov't portrayed it. I also think we see it that way because I believe that communism pretty much has to be totalitarian (but capitalism can function under any political system) and I think many (if not most) Americans would agree with that assessment, right or wrong.

-Arrian

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Arrian
One is about economic freedom (over economic equality), the other about political freedom. So I think the rest of the West (man are we generalizing or what?) may seperate the two more than we do. They also don't tend to get into calling things "evil."

I agree. Europeans seperate economic freedom and politcal freedom much more than the Americans. Indeed, I don't see Libertarian Socialism as a contradiction. I think part of the desire to brand things "evil" more in America stems somewhat from the religious aspect, throughout history, and somewhat from popularity of 'conservative' morals. But then, as a non-American, I could be wrong on that.

[Arrian]

Yeah, I think some of our rhetoric can be blamed on the Puritans. When in doubt, blame them. They did some bad ****.

We are (unfortunately, IMO) more a more religious nation than the rest of the West.

-Arrian

[TCO]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


A french guy who's rather to the left (can't remember the name, need to look it up) predicted the fall of the Berlin wall within the next 25 years in 1977. He has a new book out about America in decline, should be an interesting read. Read Tocqueville many years ago, maybe I should read it again. I didn't quite get why many Americans see his writings as a simple glorification of their country.

Drake:

"The US hasn't joined these protocols, however, so their requirements have no bearing on this issue. America still works off the more restricitve 1949 standards."

Don't know your ratification standings, but most of this is customary international law anyway, and you are bound by it unless you can claim persistent objector status.

Ad abortion:

Oddly enough, to my knowledge the US is the only western country that has a constitutional right for women to have an abortion (created by the SC out of thin air). In other countries abortion was legalized by the legislature, and court challanges were about that being a violation of the right to life - ie the exact opposite of Roe v Wade.

Ad topic:

Most differences between Americans and other Westerners are really just gradual. Take gun control - I could get a firearm with varying degrees of hazzle, that should be comparable to the more restrictive states in the US.

What really sets the Yanks apart and highlights the differences is the american obsession with being nr 1 in everything, no matter how absurd a specific claim is. I still don't understand that obsession.

1. Great one dude predicted it. Means alot? No. I can come up with a couple more. Regardless, it was not the prevailing view in the late 70's that the Soviet Union would be dismembered soon. (On the right or left.) Yes, there were people (on the right!) who said that the SU would eventually implode. But that was not what people were worried about at that time.

2. DeToqueville is not taught as a "simple glorification" of America. He does come up with some very apt analyses of the American spirit. And in general is impressed with it. Unlike you, who obsess about the US and our "glory" and good press and the like. And haven't ever even visited the country of your strange obsession.

[TCO]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Sikander:

"I think part of the American obsession with competitiveness comes from being a rather new player internationally... The Cold War added a lot of fuel to that fire, as both the Russians and Americans sought to outdo each other in every possible sphere in order to bring more glory to their respective causes."

I don't think it is about competitiveness as there is no serious attempt to compete, just to claim superiority. That can be quite odd, like the incessant hyping of GAAP (which curiously ended about a year ago). Or there is a general unwillingness to seriously consider and learn from alternative legal systems - criticism of the US system is then connected with a comparison of a bizarre caricature of foreign systems (or more funnily, a US lawyer telling me that federalism is unique to the US ).

You are the one who obsesses over every slight, real or imagined...and has never even visited the object of your concern. BTW, you seem to be in the minority of business-minded young people in Europe. They were all vying for assignments in the US, when I worked in Germany and Swistzerland. Very little enthusiasm in reverse. I even heard lots of your countrymen who thought the US was far more dynamic and interesting in terms of business. (And I don't need to bother hyping them...I've got too much restraint to tout my country when I am overseas.)

[TCO]

I initially thought that AH actually wanted to discuss the nature of the American spirit. But I see that the thread is just a typical anti-US ***** session.

Oh well, go read de Toqueville if you want some more serious stuff to think about Horsie.

[Arrian]

Occasionally, however, a couple of people who DO wish to discuss a worthy topic can manage to rescue a troll thread. Just a thought...

-Arrian

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Americans could stand to learn a lot from Euros, Canucks, Aussies, and Kiwis. And Euros, Canucks, Aussies, and Kiwis could stand to learn a lot from Americans.

Of course, I acknowledge that this would require an end to the all the posturing and blaming and arrogance and generalized *****-waving that occurs on both sides, which is as likely an occurance as George W. Bush winning the Nobel Prize for Physics.

Sometimes, I hate being right.

[Drogue]

'Tis True though. We both could learn a lot. Europeans and Americans. At least if we all stopped thinking we were the best, and no other idea can work.