Just Saw 'Two Towers'

[Arrian]

Felch,

I agree with you, but from a movie-making standpoint, I think PJ dealt with that via Merry's little speach during the Entmoot ("There won't BE a Shire, Pippin!").

-Arrian

[Flatlander Fox]

My main problem is that the Hobbits are just dead weight, unable to help themselves, unable to change the course of events BARELY, if at all.

I would have liked to see the Hobbits kick a little A$$, only because they have done nothing for most of the movies and hid behind bushes and such.

[Clear Skies]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Is Gandalf supposed to be more powerful than Sauron?

As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart.

I think Sauron is clearly more powerful than Gandalf, rivaled only by the truly great Maiar like Melian.

Varda doesn't agree with you When there was the great meeting of the Valar to determine who to send, Olorin came late, having just returned from a journey. Manwe asked him to go as one of the Istari and at first he declined, saying he was weak and fearful. Manwe told him that this was all the more reaon that he should go, as the third of the Istari.
"But Varda looked up at that, and said, 'Not as the third.' And Curumo remembered this."
Cirdan doesn't agree with you either. He divined in Gandalf the strongest spirit, and therefore gave to him Narya, the Red Ring.

Incurable nerd aren't I?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
My main problem is that the Hobbits are just dead weight, unable to help themselves, unable to change the course of events BARELY, if at all.

I would have liked to see the Hobbits kick a little A$$, only because they have done nothing for most of the movies and hid behind bushes and such.

They're supposed to be useless. That's the whole point. Sauron is defeated by force of arms, but by the inner strength of a race of people that everyone else disregards. It's a feel good story with demons and wraiths and whatnot tossed in for flavoring.

[Flatlander Fox]

But they aren't even getting the "inner strength" part right.

All the hobbits do is hide behind rocks, squeal in terror, and gaze around in wonder.

They were a little tougher in the books, and it's too bad that this is a movie about Aragorn and his part of the fellowship, rather than the hobbits themselves.

[Felch]

Yeah, I suppose. The movie really does understate important things about the hobbits. But it can't do much better of a job, or at least, I couldn't do much better of a job.

[Arrian]

Merry and Pippin get braver (in the books) toward the end of TTT and then in RotK (where one becomes squire to Theoden and the other enters the service of Denethor). One helps Eowen take down the head Nazgul. In fact, if memory serves, one of them has a little speach about not wanting to be useless anymore.

Frodo and Sam's strength is that they keep going even though it all looks hopeless.

-Arrian

[Drake Tungsten]

"But Varda looked up at that, and said, 'Not as the third.' And Curumo remembered this."
Cirdan doesn't agree with you either. He divined in Gandalf the strongest spirit, and therefore gave to him Narya, the Red Ring.

I'm well aware of this, but I don't think it indicates the Gandalf was the strongest. I think Saruman was the strongest, which is why most people and Valar chose him as a leader. Varda and Cirdan were rare characters who saw that Gandalf, despite being weaker, had the purer heart and was destined for greater things than Saruman. The passages on the Istari are all pretty vague, but this is the way I have always interpreted it.

[Clear Skies]

Ah, screw it. I say tomato...
'revealed as a lord of great reverence and power' wouldn't change your mind either?
There's some of Tolkien's notes somewhere that indicated Olorin might actually be Eonwe, herald of Manwe, or even Manwe himself, you know...

[Drake Tungsten]

There's some of Tolkien's notes somewhere that indicated Olorin might actually be Eonwe, herald of Manwe, or even Manwe himself, you know...

If true, this would change everything, but I've never seen any definitive proof for this theory, just random notes by Tolkien.

There isn't really much proof for either of our views. I've just always thought that Saruman was a little more powerful, but Gandalf made up for this by being more noble and ended being the greatest of the Istari. I've always liked that interpretation, as it fits in well with the themes present in Tolkien's work.

[Craig P.]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox They were a little tougher in the books, and it's too bad that this is a movie about Aragorn and his part of the fellowship, rather than the hobbits themselves.

Through this point, when were they tougher?

I don't think there's really been any difference between the characterization of the hobbits in the book and the characterization onscreen to this point, in terms of toughness.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

If true, this would change everything, but I've never seen any definitive proof for this theory, just random notes by Tolkien.

Since Tolkien invented the whole of that universe I guess that random notes by him are far more valid than random guesses by anyone else.

[Drake Tungsten]

Since Tolkien invented the whole of that universe I guess that random notes by him are far more valid than random guesses by anyone else.

You're ignoring the fact that Tolkien's world evolved over decades and changed dramatically over that time. Just because Tolkien mentioned briefly that Olorin might be Eonwe or (less likely) Manwe doesn't mean that he settled upon that idea and incorporated it into his final conception of the mythology of Middle Earth. Since these ideas are only mentioned briefly and were never expanded upon, I'm inclined to believe that Tolkien decided not to use these ideas.