I know all about the crossbreeding, but I'm interested in how they spawn. Do orcs come from storks?
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Just Saw 'Two Towers'
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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MRT144,
I think it just generally fits in with his dislike of messing with nature.
DanS,
I think that orcs (all orcs) breed like the other races: like humans. I guess PJ had a different take on the Uruk-hai (the mudpit spawning scenes).
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Originally posted by Arrian
Basically, the theme in Tolkien's work was: God (name escapes me)
created the races through the Valar (demigods, archangels),
except the Dwarves, who were independently created by one of the (good) Valar, but out of love and his wish to create something (for which he was reprimanded). The forces of evil dement these creations - and of course their meddling with the original creation makes nasty looking beasts (not that they were aiming for beauty anyway). The Dwarves, apparently, came out wrong due to the one Valar's attempt to make them himself... hence they are short and kinda ugly... but because the Valar was a good guy, the Dwarves have more good qualities than bad.
Melkor was one of the Valar (Morgoth became his name when he rebelled). He is Tolkien's Lucifer. He hates the races of Middle Earth and wishes to dominate them. The elves in particular, he hates. Which is why he does all sorts of nasty things to ones he captures and makes them into orcs.
Anyway, one reason Morgoth would hate the Elves would be that they drove him from Middle Earth.
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A few things I remember:
Melkor was the name given to him by Eru; the Valar named him Morgoth (which means something close to Evil One) after he fell.
And Sauron (or Gorthaur as some call him) is pretty powerful...he was originally a Maia of Aule, smith of the gods, who was corrupted. Some of the Maiar are more powerful than him though - Melian (Queen of Doriath), Eonwe (herald to Manwe) and Olorin (who became Gandalf) are three I can think of..."Love the earth and sun and animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown . . . reexamine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency" - Walt Whitman
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Most of this comes from the Simarillion, btw. When I first tried reading it, I put it down almost immediately (the opening bit is the worst part, it gets better). But it sure helps with background... and some of the stories of the 1st Age are quite good.
Melkor = Morgoth. Same guy. He gets the new name once he rebels. Melkor is the most powerful single Vala, but not the most wise. The wiser one (forget the name) is entrusted with the most knowledge by God, and Melkor is all sorts of pissed.
The Maiar are servants of the Valar. So you can view it like you said, or you can see the Valar as demigods and the Maiar as powerful spirits or something. Doesn't really matter. Sauron is of the Maiar, and must be one of the strongest, like you say. Balrogs were Maiar (changed by Morgoth) also.
The Elves didn't drive Morgoth from Middle Earth. The Valar did. The Elves fought him over the Simarils, and thus became his main opposition until the Valar got off their collective asses and took him out (well, banished him).
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Some of the Maiar are more powerful than him though - Melian (Queen of Doriath), Eonwe (herald to Manwe) and Olorin (who became Gandalf) are three I can think of...
Aule, yeah, I think he's the guy who made the Dwarves.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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except the Dwarves, who were independently created by one of the (good) Valar, but out of love and his wish to create something (for which he was reprimanded).
The Dwarves were created by Aule, the Valar associated with mining and craftmanship.
The Ents were also made by a Valar, Vanya IIRC.
The Elves and Men were created by Illuvatar (God).
Orcs and other creatures being made by the evil Valar Melkor (Morgoth. Orcs were corrupted Elves. Trolls were supposed to be evil couterparts of the Ents.
edit: The Ents were created by Yavanna, not Vanya. I think Vanya is Manwe's wife and the Valar who created the stars.Last edited by Drake Tungsten; January 8, 2003, 01:06.KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
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Is Gandalf supposed to be more powerful than Sauron?
As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart.
I think Sauron is clearly more powerful than Gandalf, rivaled only by the truly great Maiar like Melian.KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
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Originally posted by Craig P.
In Fellowship the book, Legolas shoots one of the winged beasts out from under a Nazgûl one night along Anduin. I suspect that was the inspiration for the arrow driving it off in Two Towers the movie, and as such I don't think it's contrived at all.
If the beast had crashed and burned, then I could of probably accepted that...
I stand by what I said before - the Ring is in the grasp of the Wraith (BTW, the ultimate goal of the Wraith is to bring the Ring back to Sauron) and he is driven off by an arrow. A little different than the river scene where the Wraith is merely patrolling and somewhat blindly seeking for the Ring.
He know the Ring is right in front of him at Osgiliath.
And given the incredible effort needed to kill some of the creatures/humans in the movie, this makes the Wraiths appear truly weak.Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
...aisdhieort...dticcok...
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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart.
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IMO, the decision to leave was not made by the Nazgûl, it was made by the beast. Yes, the beast was not killed (heck, that would not have been good for the story to have the Nazgûl running around on the ground), Still, based on the FOTR occurrence, it's reasonable for a single arrow to seriously injure or kill one of the winged mounts, and I don't expect it would want to stick around if it was getting shot.
YMMV, of course, but I don't think the retreat of the beast can be reasonably construed as ridiculous.
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--"Shelob should be quite interesting"
Last I was following the movies I was under the impression that this would be either completely cut or severely trimmed.
--"Uhhh... the Ring Wraiths were unable to do much in the books as well"
Actually, they were able to do quite a bit. It was only when confronted with things like elves singing about Galadriel they had any problems. They had pretty much free reign in the human territories.
--"The movie has Helm's deep as the mountain refuge of the people of Edoras"
I don't recall the people of Edoras being moved there, just the army (in the book).
--"Tolkien creates a scene of menace without unduly stretching believability"
The Ring still gives some protection to it's bearer. It was only while wearing it that Frodo would have become more in danger rather than less.
--"Return of the King just isn't that long of a book in comparison."
Especially since they're planning on leaving out the Scouring of the Shire.
--"Like I said... Paths of the Dead is totally cut out."
Heh.
--"Without knowing more about your complaints with Fellowship,"
I'd have to go rewatch it to cataloge them again, and that's not going to happen.
But it's easy to point to an example that typified what made me leave. The whole Gandalf/Saruman bit. We start by changing the manner Gandalf leaves the Shire (incidentally changing the way Frodo does and, IIRC, cutting out the whole wait-for-the-birthday bit). Then we get several minutes of Gandalf riding a horse that could have been better spent on just about any other part of the story. Then we get Gandalf and Saruman's confrontation, which elimiantes entirely the quasi-independant nature of Saruman. Then we get the lamest magical duel to ever have been filmed, one of those horrible additions they should never have attempted. I mean, please. "Excalibur" had better spell effects, and those were all done in-camera.
This is the sort of thing that made it impossible for me to stand the movie.
--"I think the problem they were trying to approach was making the time element manageable. "
My question is, why does it have to be a trilogy of movies? Cut each book in half, it's not like there's no stopping points near the middle that would work as well as the ends. And six blockbusters would get you more profits than three.
--"and as such I don't think it's contrived at all."
Depends how it was done. For one, elves can resist the Nazgul better than humans. For another, it was the beast he was riding that was vulnerable to the arrow, not the Nazgul itself.
Wraith
"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."
- Gandalf
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Originally posted by Wraith
--"The movie has Helm's deep as the mountain refuge of the people of Edoras"
I don't recall the people of Edoras being moved there, just the army (in the book).
--"I think the problem they were trying to approach was making the time element manageable. "
My question is, why does it have to be a trilogy of movies? Cut each book in half, it's not like there's no stopping points near the middle that would work as well as the ends. And six blockbusters would get you more profits than three.
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The Scouring of the Shire is a critical part of the whole story. It demonstrates that the war reaches everybody and there are no safe refuges. It's part of the reason why there is such a different tone between the light hearted Shire of the beginning and the darker human and wild lands through the rest of the book.
Tolkein intended for it, and while it may not be flashy, it was an integral part of the story. It helps to show how the hobbits have matured over the course of their quest and how they became actual heroes on par with the Big People. I can understand time constraints in movies, but the scouring is not what should be cut out.John Brown did nothing wrong.
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