Just Saw 'Two Towers'

[Ming]

Uhhh... the Ring Wraiths were unable to do much in the books as well

[Dr Strangelove]

I thought that I remembered from the bookm that Helm's Deep was a fortress somewhat in between Edoras and Isengard, and that Aragorn et al. went there because they thaought that it was the next place that Saruman's army would strike. The movie has Helm's deep as the mountain refuge of the people of Edoras, the capital of Rohan. Which is right?

[hexagonian]

FOTR was better...

Most of the weighty scenes in the 2nd book are going to be relegated to ROTK. (Minas Morgul, Shelob, Gandalf's confrontation with Saruman after the fall of Orthanc)

I guess I'm not locked into the whole idea that any deviation from the book is a bad thing. Seems to me that the general themes are still holding up well in the movies.

The change in Faramir's character did not bother me too much because it heightened the whole aspect that the Ring is a huge temptation for humans to use. If it was one thing that I did not like about Tolkien after repeated readings, it was his characters seemed somewhat two-dimensional in comparison to the rest of the world he created - and the characters seem to become even more two-dimensional later in the books. One thing Jackson has succeeded in so far is creating believable characters, (maybe not from the standpoint of their invunerability in battle), but in emotional weight.

Compare the characters in Lord of the Rings with ANY of the Star Wars movies, and there is no comparison at all.

The job Jackson did with Gollum is incredible. That was the highlight of TTT, and in fact is the high point so far of both movies.

To have Faramir wrestle with the dilemma of the Ring, as Jackson did, gave more weight to the power of the Ring, and makes the Ring even more of an entity. Ultimately, the end result is the same - Faramir releases Frodo to fulfill his quest - to face the wrath and disappointment of Denethor.

However...

Having Frodo up on the wall in Osgiliath with a Nazgul, and Faramir driving off that Nazgul with a single arrow is a stretch though. It was a totally contrived scene that made the Nazgul appear weak. These are some of the most fearsome creatures in Middle-earth, driven by the will of the most powerful being, and they are driven off by an arrow, especially when the Ring is in their grasp???? C'mon....

And it happened in the first movie when Frodo first meets the Black Rider. Tolkien creates a scene of menace without unduly stretching believability (The Rider is on the road, and Frodo/Sam are off to the side, but the Rider is not 12'' away right above the hollow, merely to be distracted by a thrown stick.)

Many of the battle scenes at Helms Deep stretched credibility, from the last charge of Theoden/Aragorn out the gates (where are the orc archers when you need them) to the charge of the Rohannin thart defies the laws of physics. (steep incline, and no Rohannin were killed in the filming of this scene, despite those extremely long pointy sticks the orcs were holding - yeah many were in the act of lowering them because of the light, but please, have some Rohannin die anyway...)

Still, the movies have exceeded anything I had hoped for. I've already seen TTT 3 times, so I must like it. And despite the stretches of credibility, Helm's Deep looked cool from a visual standpoint.

It's a very long wait until next December

[Imran Siddiqui]

Gollum would've been very good (they did the whole multiple personality disorder thing really well) except a bunch of morons in the row behind us thought it was funny.

Everyone in my theather thought it was hilarious. I felt I was the only one not laughing.

--

I dunno... some of the long drawn out silly parts (Aragorn's long journey) could have been cut (though I did like the scene of the old King Aragorn dead on the slab with Arwen weeping).

It just seems to me they took out the BEST parts of TTT. Helm's Deep was a nice battle, but I agree it was ridiculous! Gimli and Aragorn hold off the entire Orc army from the gate, while the soldiers reinforce it? RIIIIIGHT.

I was sad that we didn't get to see Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas go to see the destruction the Ents wrought on Isengard. Also Shelob's Lair and Sam's taking of the ring.

WHAT an ending it would be if TTT ended as it did in the books, with Sam taking the ring and Frodo captured by the enemy. Imagine that cliffhanger?!

[DanS]

The book is right, of course!

Edoras is the capital. The valley and the fortress of the Hornburg was called Helm's Deep, because Helm Hammerhand the King of Rohan refuged to it when the rest of the Mark had been lost.

The King sent Eowyn, the women and children to the mountains (Dunharrow). The King, Gandalf, Aragorn and co. set out to the Fords of Isen. On the way, they met a horseman retreating from the host of Isengard. Gandalf suggested that they all retreat to Helm's Deep, which they did. The women and children in Helm's Deep were those of the Westfold. So two sets of women and children, which Peter Jackson folded into one.

[Ming]

Return of the King just isn't that long of a book in comparison. They did the right thing by cutting it when they did, and leaving some of it for the third movie.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, ROTK isn't a long book... but they don't have a to have another 3 hour movie either .

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Ming
Return of the King just isn't that long of a book in comparison. They did the right thing by cutting it when they did, and leaving some of it for the third movie.

Which is why ROTK WILL BE the best of the three.

A whole busload of stuff they have to cram in...TTT is like any other middle part of a trilogy - a bridge to the climax(es).

...can't wait for the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate, and the unleashing of the true strength of Mordor, especially after seeing the Black Gate in TTT.

[SlowwHand]

Actually,I think, in the book Minas Tirith was bigger battle than Helm's Deep.

[DanS]

Minas Tirith had ~ 60,000 involved, Osgiliath inclusive, IIRC. Helm's Deep only ~ 15,000. The battle at the black gate ~ 30,000 (?)

[DinoDoc]

Sounds like RTOK is going to be heavy on the battle scenes.

[DanS]

It's going to be tough to break out the two ROTK battle scenes as Tolkien has it.

[Arrian]

I've reconciled myself to most of the changes, but I still reject the Faramir change. It irritates me. It besmirches one of my favorite characters' character - Faramir does indeed have an opportunity to "prove his quality" an does so in the book by rejecting the ring immediately...but not in the movie, serves no purpose that I can see, and leads to a (IMO) useless scene in Osgiliath. Plus, exactly why is it that Faramir relents once in Osgiliath? The Nazgul "attack" on Frodo? Bah.

The other changes were ok.

-Arrian

[Demerzel]

no it was Sam's little speech that is supposed to have swayed Faramir. I felt that the scene in Osgiliath did indeed weaken both Faramir & the Nazguls. Especially the Nazgul, men are supposed to flee in terror at the sight of them not just ignore them. The whole scene could have been dropped imho and the time used spent more profitably elsewhere.

The arrow shot is probably ripped from the bit in FOTR where Legolas shoots down the flying beast that the Nazgul rides when they are canoeing down the river. A lot of scenes are melded together in this manner.

[Lars-E]

Saw it Dec 26th 2002.

Too much war. Nr 1 was much better and more exciting.