Medieval Eurocom History: sinkholes, wolves, and gout

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Can somebody answer me this? This was mostly post-medieval, but I've searched for this answer and have yet to come up with anything.

There was a big trend for hundreds of years, for mostly French and Italian men, to be really effeminate in both manner and dress.

I mean I see the pictures of these guys wearing tights, skirts, high heels, long haired wigs, and lots of makeup.

Where did this awful trend get its start?

Wigs and high heels I think date back to the reign of Louis XIV. During his reign the power and influence of the great nobility were greatly reduced. He made the nobles dependent upon his patronage, the getting of which required them to hang around his court pretty much 24/7. By carefully doling out rewards he made himself the idol of the aristocratic class, who flattered him by copying literally everything about him. High heels were used to give themselves height. As he aged it became fashionable among the younger nobility to make themselves appear older using make up and wigs.

At the start of the middle ages most of Europe was wearing what it had worn during Roman times - robes and leggings. That evolved naturally into tunics which you may be referring to as dresses, and tights.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Sikander
There was a huge population loss as the Roman empire collapsed, particularly among the urban elite who were the keepers of a lot of technology. The devolution of the political establishment in most places meant that many of the complex trading systems of the Roman era were essentially destroyed, and the results were the starvation of many large urban areas. It is estimated that the population of many parts of Western Europe during the "dark ages" dropped to about 25% of its level during good Roman times, mostly from the effects of warfare directly, as well as the disruption of distribution networks. Of course as has been said previously, these effects were not seen everywhere or in the same degree even where they were experienced.

Much of this urban population fled to the countryside, often primarily due to the dramatic fall off in trade as the empire broke up. Without having the means to support themselves they were often forced to put themselves and their families in the service of landowners. Some authors consider this trend as the beginnings of serfdom.

[Dis]

So would it have been better had the Roman empire survived? I think there was a thread on this, but I never read it.

[Evil Knevil]

Much of this urban population fled to the countryside, often primarily due to the dramatic fall off in trade as the empire broke up. Without having the means to support themselves they were often forced to put themselves and their families in the service of landowners. Some authors consider this trend as the beginnings of serfdom.

Actually, the Latifunda (as they're called) were more a cause than a consequence of the Roman Empire's fall, and it had more to do with Diolecticans "job inheritance" laws and massive tax increases.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Wigs and high heels I think date back to the reign of Louis XIV. During his reign the power and influence of the great nobility were greatly reduced. He made the nobles dependent upon his patronage, the getting of which required them to hang around his court pretty much 24/7. By carefully doling out rewards he made himself the idol of the aristocratic class, who flattered him by copying literally everything about him. High heels were used to give themselves height. As he aged it became fashionable among the younger nobility to make themselves appear older using make up and wigs.

At the start of the middle ages most of Europe was wearing what it had worn during Roman times - robes and leggings. That evolved naturally into tunics which you may be referring to as dresses, and tights.

Thank you Doc, very interesting, especially the part about when he got older.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Thank you Doc, very interesting, especially the part about when he got older.

Yes, while "The Sun King" wore dark wigs to make himself appear younger, to flatter him the courtiers adopted white wigs to make themselves appear older.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ned
By the time the Normans took England in 1066, they appeared to be speaking French, not Norse or Latin. And yet, they were settled in Normandy for only 100 years. Doesn't this suggest that the Normans of 1066 were largely a mixture of Vikings and Gaulish women?

What you do not perhaps know is that William the Conquerer's army was not merely a group of Norman troops, but a mix of mercenaries and adventururers from many countries as well. Thus whether or not French was the lingua franca of the Norman members of the group at home or not, it was the lingua franca of the army that invaded England and became the ruling elite there.

[Saint Marcus]

The article states that the study was funded by the BBC.

can you post your source too? would be nice to compare the two (sources&findings)

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sikander


What you do not perhaps know is that William the Conquerer's army was not merely a group of Norman troops, but a mix of mercenaries and adventururers from many countries as well. Thus whether or not French was the lingua franca of the Norman members of the group at home or not, it was the lingua franca of the army that invaded England and became the ruling elite there.

Going by the numbers bearing names beginning with "Fitz", there were a considerable number of illegitimate sons looking for a lucky break.

Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

[Ted Striker]

Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

[redbaron]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

"The French ... believe themselves to be ... the natural heirs to Europe. It has been explained to them that there is a difference between natural heirs and legitimate heirs, but they cannot appreciate subtle distinctions, probably because French has the smallest vocabulary of any language in Europe." - Alan Coren

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


can you post your source too? would be nice to compare the two (sources&findings)

JAMA issues are not available online, and anyway I don't keep them around so I don't have the whole referrence citation.